This week’s line-up is a reminder that humans will do anything except choose the obvious option straight away. We’ve got a suitcase that was probably originally invented by a female, but then obviously the patriarchy didn’t treat it seriously until a man made it. There’s a smallpox vaccine rollout that involved sailing across an ocean with a rotating supply of infected orphan children, and a drug that went from medical research to TikTok tan hack with a side of “you definitely shouldn’t do this”.
None of these stories are really about suitcases, vaccines, or tanning. They’re about status, logistics, and what happens when culture gets its hands on science.
The wheelie suitcase, and the weird politics of looking strong
The wheelie suitcase feels like one of those inventions that should have existed the moment someone invented the suitcase. You put wheels on the bottom, you stop destroying your shoulder, and everyone goes home happy.
Except it didn’t land like that. Katrine Marçal, in Mother of Invention, points out that part of the delay wasn’t technical at all. It was social.
Rolling your bag was coded as feminine, soft, lazy, not the sort of thing a “proper” man would do when he could simply lug it like a hero. Which is a genuinely impressive commitment to suffering for no practical reason.
Eventually, economics and travel won. More people flying, more people carrying their own luggage, and less appetite for performative back pain meant wheels became normal. The suitcase didn’t change. The story we told ourselves about it did.
Smallpox vaccination, featuring: a boat full of orphans
If you want proof that public health has always been part science and part logistics, smallpox will happily provide it. Before you could ship vaccines in a chilled box with tracking and a polite email update, you had to get… creative.
Enter the Balmis Expedition. Francisco Xavier de Balmis led a mission to bring vaccination to the Americas, and the method was as bold as it was unsettling.
They transported cowpox using a chain of orphans, keeping the virus “alive” by passing it from child to child during the voyage. It sounds like a horror plot now. At the time, it was a workaround for a world without refrigeration, and it saved lives.
It also shows the uncomfortable truth about innovation. It’s rarely just about discovery. It’s about distribution, power, trust, and who gets used as the solution when there isn’t a better one.
The “Barbie drug” and what happens when the internet gets a syringe
Then we get to the modern version of the same problem: a real medical product, dragged into a completely different context by hype. Melanotan II was developed with a serious goal: to help people with low pigmentation protect against UV exposure.
But online, it got rebranded. Suddenly it’s the “Barbie drug”, sold as a shortcut to a tan, with the kind of confidence that only comes from someone who has never read a side effects list.
And the side effects are not cute. Reports include unpredictable erections, nausea, changes to moles, and concerns around melanoma risk. The bigger issue is that people aren’t just buying a product. They’re buying a story about it, and that story is being written by influencers, not clinicians.
It’s funny in the way that makes you laugh, then immediately feel uneasy. We’ve built a world where a drug can go from lab bench to beauty trend faster than the safety conversation can keep up.
So that’s a wrap for this week: a suitcase delayed by gender nonsense, a vaccine rollout powered by brutal logistics, and a modern drug turned into a social media dare. Different centuries, same theme.
We don’t just adopt inventions because they work. We adopt them when culture says it’s acceptable, when the system can move them, and when the story around them feels good enough to share.
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Introduction
00:28 Gendered Tech History
01:55 Wheelie Suitcase Mystery
06:16 Sexism Blocks Adoption
13:17 Masculinity Shapes Innovation
14:42 Smallpox Devastation
19:58 Balmis Expedition Challenge
21:26 Orphans As Vaccine Carriers
25:08 Tokyo Half Pants Heat
27:05 Speeding And Emissions
29:11 Tanning Drug Priapism
36:41 Influencer Surveillance Stunts
39:09 Fitbit AI Coach
43:22 AI Health Advice Gone Wrong
-
[00:00:01] Rod: Look, I
[00:00:02] I admit, I never realised how insanely influential the whole real men don't insert non-manly thing here, so to speak. Like, you know, eat veggies, wear sunscreen, go to the doctor, blah, blah. I think about that and I think it's dumb, you know. And I always say my doctor's-- I'm not like an Aussie male. I come to the doctor to find things out.
[00:00:20] So there's a whole bunch of things real men apparently don't do. And I was-- I found this piece written by a woman called Katrine Marçal. I probably
[00:00:27] pronounced
[00:00:27] that terribly. Something she discovered when she was researching her book called "Mother of Invention: How Good Ideas Get Ignored in an Economy Built by Men."
[00:00:37] I went, "Oh, that's interesting." So she talks about all these examples through history, technology, and inventions being adopted and developed
[00:00:43] or
[00:00:43] not because of how masculine or feminine they're seen as being by the culture of the day. You look so worried. You don't need to worry. This one's fine.
[00:00:49] Will: You're not meant to talk to me.
[00:00:50] Rod: I'm not. You're not supposed to answer
[00:00:52] either. That's
[00:00:53] either.
[00:00:54] We've broken
[00:00:54] That's the dream. We've broken the fifth wall. So she notes things like electric cars appearing in the 1800s, quickly seen as [00:01:00] feminine
[00:01:01] because they
[00:01:01] were slower and less dangerous. That's, that's what
[00:01:03] That's, that's
[00:01:04] it is.
[00:01:04] So
[00:01:05] not widely built and marketed and sold because real men don't want slow and less dangerous.
[00:01:10] Apparently, the masculinity thing even slowed the uptake of electric starters for petrol-driven cars because
[00:01:17] it
[00:01:17] made it too easy, and, you know, women didn't like the crank handle, but the men were like, "No, it's manly." Even roofs. Apparently, open-top cars were considered unmanly, so it took a while for roofs on cars to catch on.
[00:01:26] All fascinating.
[00:01:27] She,
[00:01:27] and she, she says it goes way back further and even more general, like ideas about gender, she says, also limit what we even count as technology. Like we talk about the Iron Age, we talk about the Bronze Age, but she says we can also talk about the Ceramic Age and the Flax Age, but these tech- 'cause these technologies are just as important, but they're associated with women, not men, therefore we don't have a, a Ceramic Age or Flax Age.
[00:01:50] All very eye-opening for me, all very interesting. Sounds great.
[00:01:52] But
[00:01:52] But the main thrust of the piece was not about any of these. It
[00:01:55] It
[00:01:55] focused on probably the most simple and, in hindsight, extremely obvious [00:02:00] recent invention which exemplifies this whole thing, the wheelie suitcase
[00:02:19] Will: It's time
[00:02:20] a
[00:02:20] a little bit of science. I'm Will Grant, an associate professor in science communication at the Australian National University.
[00:02:27] Rod: And I'm Rod Lamberts, a 30-year science communication veteran with the mind of a
[00:02:31] a
[00:02:31] teenage boy.
[00:02:32] Will: And as well as the manifestations of techno sexism in the wheelie suitcase, we've also got for you scientific heroes when the times were a bit different.
[00:02:42] Rod: bit different
[00:02:43] I have Hadrian's toilet.
[00:02:44] Will: I'm gonna say you can do it for the planet.
[00:02:46] Rod: I'm gonna
[00:02:47] remind us how we can't cheat the sun.
[00:02:48] Will: And I've got, of course, a little bit of a but not I.
[00:02:52] Rod: And let's be fair, it's not hard to find a story like that.
[00:02:54] that
[00:02:54] Will: Stop it. Stop it. It's very hard. It's very-
[00:02:57] Rod: they're Especially when they're not
[00:02:57] Will: good
[00:02:58] very hard. Impossible.
[00:02:59] Rod: [00:03:00] We were laughing before we started recording-
[00:03:01] recording
[00:03:01] at how every week brings a new... lots of A, not I- ... or I, not us.
[00:03:04] not I, or lots of I and not... It's, uh, ugh
[00:03:07] Will: Every day another A, but not I. Yeah. But
[00:03:08] not I.
[00:03:09] Rod: Uh. Oh, the
[00:03:10] Will: the wheelie suitcase.
[00:03:10] Rod: The wheelie suitcase.
[00:03:11] Like, your little face was all screwed
[00:03:13] Like, your little face was all screwed up. You're like, "What, what horrible
[00:03:14] Will: thing is he going to make me do?" No, no, I didn't think it was gonna be horrible. No.
[00:03:16] Rod: did. Yeah, you
[00:03:17] Yeah, of course you did, and you thought I was gonna use this to, talk
[00:03:19] about other people being really sexist rather than just claiming it for myself.
[00:03:23] Will: Okay.
[00:03:23] Rod: Something. I'm
[00:03:24] I've
[00:03:24] not sexist anymore. I've grown out of
[00:03:25] Will: it. So you're a, user of the wheelie suitcase. You're not still a traditional carry your suitcase with all by, all by the handles guy?
[00:03:32] Rod: yeah, with
[00:03:32] two fingers.
[00:03:34] with two fingers. The first time I ever went anywhere,
[00:03:35] I
[00:03:36] didn't even know much about wheelie suitcases.
[00:03:38] I remember the few that I saw, I was like, "That's a bit whatever." That's a bit whatever. And so I was carrying this- You, you, you said
[00:03:40] whatever"
[00:03:41] Will: that's a bit whatever.
[00:03:42] Rod: And so I was carrying this old shitty suitcase That's
[00:03:43] Will: a bit whatever.
[00:03:44] Like harden up and carry it like a-
[00:03:47] Rod: Carry a bag. I didn't think like a man. I just saw
[00:03:49] a young human.
[00:03:50] Will: Oh, look, I am, I remain someone who,
[00:03:53] a
[00:03:53] enjoys a backpack.
[00:03:54] Rod: I don't like the pickpocket ability of a backpack.
[00:03:56] Will: Yeah, I know. But I can, I can outrun them. from.
[00:03:58] Rod: of them you don't need to run from. They're [00:04:00] just- Oh ... they, they manifest around you
[00:04:02] Will: Are
[00:04:02] You're saying pickpo- pickpockets can't get into a wheelie suitcase?
[00:04:04] Rod: suitcase?
[00:04:05] Not as easily.
[00:04:06] Really?
[00:04:06] no, I, I carried this big heavy thing f-
[00:04:08] f-
[00:04:08] from Australia to Geneva, then to Tokyo.
[00:04:12] Will: A cardboard box wrapped in string.
[00:04:14] Rod: It was kinda like that. It was an old school suitcase I borrowed from my mum, and it was
[00:04:17] horribly
[00:04:17] unpleasant.
[00:04:20] Heavy,
[00:04:20] cumbersome, with a weakening handle.
[00:04:23] I think I got a wheelie suitcase the
[00:04:24] next
[00:04:24] very next trip I went anywhere.
[00:04:25] It was like, "Nope,
[00:04:26] it." But at the time, earlier in the,
[00:04:28] 20th,
[00:04:28] that was not the go. So apparently 1970, there's an American luggage executive,
[00:04:34] which
[00:04:34] you've gotta have, Bernard Sadow-
[00:04:36] Will: Executive of a l- a luggage company, not just a luggage executive.
[00:04:39] Rod: No, he's just in charge of luggage. But very, very senior-
[00:04:43] in
[00:04:43] Okay
[00:04:43] in charge of luggage. Bernard Sadow, apparently he took four casters from a wardrobe
[00:04:47] and he screwed them into a suitcase.
[00:04:49] Will: Wardrobes
[00:04:49] and he screwed them into a suitcase. From a wardrob- wardrobes don't commonly have casters. No,
[00:04:51] Rod: they don't. Even that I was thinking like, "Huh, I should dig into that," but I ran out of time. I'm like, "Just off a wardrobe?"
[00:04:55] Will: Well-
[00:04:56] Rod: As opposed to- ...
[00:04:56] Will: obviously he's like, "I've got the only wardrobe in the world with casters.
[00:04:59] [00:05:00] It's embarrassing. I'll put them on my suitcase." "I'll
[00:05:01] Rod: put them on my suitcase 'cause I'm not an idiot." So he screwed them on his suitcase, and then he put a strap on the suitcase, like a
[00:05:07] suitcase, like a
[00:05:08] hand strap.
[00:05:09] Will: Yep.
[00:05:09] Rod: And described as trotting gleefully around the house with it.
[00:05:12] Will: Well, why wouldn't you? "Whee!" "Look, family, I've invented something."
[00:05:16] Rod: "I have." so apparently he, this is, he, he invented the first wheeled suitcase.
[00:05:20] Will: What year are we talking?
[00:05:21] Rod: 1970.
[00:05:22] Will: Oh, that late. That's so weird 'cause people were definitely traveling before then.
[00:05:26] Rod: Yeah. Oh, yes, since 1965 at least.
[00:05:28] Will: I know. It's
[00:05:29] Rod: Well, now all I think is so literally everyone before that was carrying a sea chest.
[00:05:33] Will: Yeah. That's it. But you could put wheels on a sea chest too. But
[00:05:36] Rod: you shouldn't. It'd be dangerous. They're very heavy.
[00:05:37] Will: I guess you're
[00:05:38] at
[00:05:38] at sea. They might roll around in the, in the- You would
[00:05:40] Rod: use some sort of- ...
[00:05:40] Will: the luggage ...
[00:05:41] Rod: use an attachment.
[00:05:42] No, the sea chest, you, you know, put them on their end, bring them into your cabin,
[00:05:45] open up
[00:05:46] they'd open up a
[00:05:46] Will: zip- Oh, like a, like a closet
[00:05:48] like a,
[00:05:48] Rod: like a... Yeah, a portable closet.
[00:05:49] Apparently a bunch of heavyweight economists and big brain thinker types have pondered long and hard why it took us so long to make this miraculous
[00:05:58] discovery or [00:06:00] shortage of wheels?
[00:06:00] and one of them, a guy called Nassim Nicholas Taleb, we've all read his stuff. "
[00:06:04] Will: Black Swan."
[00:06:05] Rod: Exactly.
[00:06:05] Sees the rolling suitcase as a parable of how often we
[00:06:08] to ignore the simple solutions. Mm. The simple things
[00:06:11] tend to ignore the simple solutions- Mm ... or the simple things to common problems.
[00:06:11] common problems.
[00:06:12] So it's a neat example of how slow and/or blind we can be to the obvious.
[00:06:15] But
[00:06:16] Katrine Marcel's research
[00:06:17] just looking
[00:06:18] into this stuff, she discovered a parable of how aggressively sexist we
[00:06:21] be
[00:06:22] can be- Oh, okay ... in this realm.
[00:06:23] Will: Yeah.
[00:06:23] Rod: So she notes when she was researching her book, she found a photo in a newspaper archive of a woman in a fur coat pulling a suitcase along on wheels in 1952.
[00:06:33] Will: Oh, so she invented it.
[00:06:34] Rod: We don't know.
[00:06:35] Will: Well, definitely not the guy after her.
[00:06:37] Rod: definitely before '72.
[00:06:39] Will: That's, that's one thing I can confirm.
[00:06:40] Rod: Yes. Yes. So that was odd. then she found an account from a 1967 letter. A woman in Leicestershire,
[00:06:47] or
[00:06:48] for our American cousins, Leicestershire, 'cause they don't know how-
[00:06:51] Will: It looks like Leicestershire.
[00:06:53] Rod: I know, I know
[00:06:53] do that. They know how to read it. She
[00:06:55] apparently, quote, "Wrote a sharply worded letter to her local newspaper complaining [00:07:00] that a bus conductor
[00:07:01] had
[00:07:01] forced her to buy an additional ticket for
[00:07:03] suitcase."
[00:07:04] Will: rolling
[00:07:04] Rod: yeah.
[00:07:05] Will: If, if it had been non-rolling, would it have gone free?
[00:07:08] Rod: Maybe, 'cause a- apparently the, the bus- 'Cause
[00:07:10] Will: it looks too human.
[00:07:11] Rod: human.
[00:07:11] It's too- No,
[00:07:12] said
[00:07:12] the bus conductor said anything on wheels should be classed as a pushchair,
[00:07:14] I assume is a pram.
[00:07:15] which I assume is a
[00:07:15] Will: pram. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:07:17] Rod: So
[00:07:17] it was on
[00:07:17] it was on wheels.
[00:07:18] Will: Seriously, bus conductor, man, like-
[00:07:20] Rod: Stop
[00:07:22] Will: being so self-important, you little shit ... I--
[00:07:22] Like,
[00:07:23] Come on. You're meant to, you know, welcome the world. Yeah. You know?
[00:07:26] Rod: Yeah.
[00:07:26] Yeah.
[00:07:27] Will: Jesus Christ.
[00:07:28] Rod: Tickets
[00:07:28] please,
[00:07:28] please, click.
[00:07:29] Will: Yeah.
[00:07:29] Rod: Bung her off to the back of the bus where you-
[00:07:31] Will: What year was that then? '
[00:07:33] Rod: 67.
[00:07:34] was that then? '67
[00:07:34] Will: Oh, so that, that's after '52. I'm just keeping the chronology in my head. It
[00:07:37] Rod: was after '52, but before 1970.
[00:07:39] Will: Okay. Yeah, I got that. So- So there's two incidences- There are
[00:07:42] Rod: these two incidences of this going on.
[00:07:43] Katrine says, "Look, in the early days, or mass train tourism in Europe, major stations were all full of porters carrying bags like-"
[00:07:50] Will: Oh, okay. So it's the, it was the unions.
[00:07:52] Rod: Bloody unions.
[00:07:54] Will: It was the unions that stopped us from doing it.
[00:07:55] Rod: No.
[00:07:56] Will: Oh.
[00:07:57] Rod: Apparently not. By the mid-20th century,
[00:07:59] way
[00:07:59] [00:08:00] less porters, far more humans just lugging their own bags.
[00:08:02] Will: Oh. '
[00:08:03] Rod: Cause
[00:08:03] maybe it was the maybe it was anti-union-
[00:08:05] Will: Look, no, I get it. No. 19th century, the only people that are traveling are people that, you know, they're, they're rich, and so they've got, like, they've got 30 steamer trunks per person, and that's, their luggage, uh, allowance was, uh, let's call it generous.
[00:08:16] Rod: more
[00:08:16] More than 20
[00:08:16] kilos.
[00:08:17] Will: they have servants, and in, like, half of the luggage, steamer trunks are more servants. So, so-
[00:08:22] Rod: need spares.
[00:08:22] Yeah. So- You dehydrate
[00:08:23] need to do is- You know, so ... dehydrate them and fold them, roll them up.
[00:08:25] up.
[00:08:26] But yeah, I, I look at our grand houses, they're so freaking lofty. That's why I have mixed feelings about these old estates that collapse into themselves because it's like it took 500 people to keep
[00:08:34] a
[00:08:35] a day-to-day alleged house running, and you're like, it's 'cause we can't afford to pay
[00:08:37] can't
[00:08:37] 500
[00:08:37] pay 500
[00:08:38] people to look after your damn house.
[00:08:39] Will: You know, you know, it wasn't can't afford. It's all choices. It's taxation system. We just taxed them out of existence. Like Downton Abbey
[00:08:48] Rod: all choices. It's taxation system. We just tax them out of existence. Like Downtown Abbey- Oh yeah, they got taxed out of existence ...
[00:08:50] Will: yeah, basically. Basically. Like, like-
[00:08:51] They, yeah, basically, basically. Like, like up until, up until before World War I, they were like, "We are so rich 'cause we don't get taxed and we have all this capital. We can, we can have a billion servants per person." [00:09:00] And then-
[00:09:01] Rod: So trickle-down economics worked-
[00:09:01] Will: And then, and- ... until
[00:09:02] Rod: taxation ...
[00:09:03] Will: and then people said, "You know, maybe that's not cool."
[00:09:05] And then, then-
[00:09:06] Rod: put all those people out of jobs. Tax destroys jobs. Message
[00:09:11] The poorest people out of jobs. Tax destroyed jobs. Message received.
[00:09:12] Will: And then we all had to get wheelie suitcases. So, you know, it's taxation in the end. That's what, that's what drove innovation here
[00:09:17] Rod: by men again, always men. she says part of
[00:09:20] So she says part of the reason for this going on, this 20th century, luggage hauling by people on their own, partially to do with assumptions about gender which were at work in the background. Yep. So travelers were rarely women traveling alone.
[00:09:30] Will: Oh, okay.
[00:09:30] Rod: Very rare. So the men would be there to carry-
[00:09:33] Will: So husbands can, can man the bags.
[00:09:35] Wait
[00:09:35] Rod: for the luggage arrival.
[00:09:36] Will: Yeah. And they, they've got 30 steamer trunks on their head.
[00:09:39] Rod: Balanced on their-
[00:09:39] Will: A very, a very common image of 19th century England is, is the, the walrus mustachioed husband- Arm with a walking stick ... with, with all of the steamer trunks on his head. Spat
[00:09:49] Rod: and he's gotta hold his cane in his teeth.
[00:09:49] And go,
[00:09:49] his
[00:09:49] "I
[00:09:50] in his
[00:09:50] say, also, of course, you couldn't have wheelie bags then 'cause real men wouldn't-
[00:09:54] roll a wheelie, a bag around on
[00:09:56] wheels, that would be
[00:09:57] Will: unmanly Well, maybe. Yeah
[00:09:59] Rod: But apparently this was- [00:10:00]
[00:10:00] Will: Yeah ...
[00:10:00] Rod: she can allegedly verify this. So apparently also the pre-- so the pre-'70s wheelie bags out there were, considered niche products for
[00:10:07] for women.
[00:10:08] They
[00:10:08] did
[00:10:08] did exist, allegedly. Sam Alden, your guy who officially invented it-
[00:10:12] Will: So he has to, he, he couldn't possibly have seen one- Apparently ... or bought one himself. He's like, "I have to invent this category, and, and its, its genealogy has to be pure man all the way through."
[00:10:22] Rod: Suitcase executive.
[00:10:23] Will: That's, that's the only way it can actually get actually invented- Yeah
[00:10:26] is if a man invents it. Jesus.
[00:10:28] Rod: I wonder behind the scenes, apparently, I think the patent didn't come in until '72, so this was about the patent, I wonder, for more than
[00:10:29] scenes, apparently, I think the patent didn't come in until '72, so this was about the patent, for more
[00:10:35] the invention. But anyway, al-allegedly,
[00:10:37] supposedly- Yeah
[00:10:38] he claims it. And he said when he officially invented it
[00:10:42] or got
[00:10:42] or got the patent, he went to US department store chains and, and apparently they went, "No, it's really, we, we can't use that because there's this macho feeling.
[00:10:49] men
[00:10:49] carry luggage for their wives.
[00:10:50] It's a natural thing to do."
[00:10:51] So
[00:10:52] department stores went, "We, we don't really want this. We're not gonna sell it to anyone."
[00:10:55] Off you
[00:10:56] pop, luggage executive ...
[00:10:57] Will: I, I just feel like, you get someone [00:11:00] walking through an airport and not sweating, and everyone goes, "Oh, damn, that looks pretty cool."
[00:11:05] Rod: I agree ...
[00:11:05] Will: maybe this is how. You know the luggage stores in the airport that no one understands, 'cause you're in the airport and you're like- Oh ... "Who's fucking buying a luggage at the airport?" I've got something to put all this stuff in. No, I agree. Like, who is buying luggage? I-- Look, there is a legit reason, maybe this is how that, that started, is, is they were like, "Okay, so we'll sell them here."
[00:11:22] Rod: I've dragged it in here. There are these huge gouges in the floor
[00:11:24] behind me, and then I've
[00:11:25] and
[00:11:26] Whoa,
[00:11:26] Will: this, "Ah." The wheels.
[00:11:27] Rod: The bag has wheels.
[00:11:28] Burn
[00:11:28] Burn this one to the ground. So yeah, apparently he couldn't sell them to big chain department stores.
[00:11:33] the woman running it, Katrine Marcel, she says that the changes really started around 1987 when a pilot in the US, guy called Robert Plath, took Sam Alden's suitcase,
[00:11:41] turned it
[00:11:41] on its side, made it smaller, and created modern cabin baggage.
[00:11:45] So as a pilot, you know,
[00:11:46] their
[00:11:46] trendy little carry-on stuff that all the,
[00:11:48] Will: the- Yeah.
[00:11:49] And I, and I get... I mean, I, I remember the early versions of, of wheeled suitcases, where your traditional like a big old sort of suitcase, and it just had the sort of two wheels in the back. Yeah, the two was annoying. But the transformation into the cabin bag [00:12:00] style suitcase is, is, you know, it's, it's understanding the environment in which it's gonna operate much better.
[00:12:05] Rod: It is. It is. And, and like my first,
[00:12:06] yeah,
[00:12:07] know, wheelie bag, it only had two wheels and that was just annoying because it always had to
[00:12:08] and that was just annoying 'cause it always had to
[00:12:09] be on an angle.
[00:12:10] Will: Mm.
[00:12:10] Rod: Then I got a four-wheeled one and I was like, "What miracle is this?"
[00:12:12] Will: You're still at four?
[00:12:13] Rod: Yeah, I, I can't afford an eight-wheeled
[00:12:14] I can't afford an eight-wheeled
[00:12:15] Will: my luggage now- It's absolutely ball-shaped ... is, is ball-shaped. It's all wheel. It's all wheel. Just, it's just pure wheel.
[00:12:21] Rod: It's
[00:12:21] a wheel with a little compartment in the middle. We, we prioritize
[00:12:25] little compartment in the middle. We, we prioritize multi-wheelies at any construction- Yeah.
[00:12:27] Will: I get off the plane and it bounces away off to Singapore. Like it's
[00:12:30] Rod: back, come back." there. So, um, this 1980s phenomenon, apparently this modern cabin bag got people going, "Oh."
[00:12:37] Also more women were traveling alone in the '80s. They were, you know, they were getting jobs like, you know, grown men got jobs.
[00:12:42] Will: What? Huh.
[00:12:43] Rod: I know.
[00:12:43] So
[00:12:44] they had to travel, and so the wheeled suitcase became a lot more real.
[00:12:48] Will: When were men allowed to have them?
[00:12:49] Rod: Well, this is what I wonder, like I think it sort of surreptitiously, just like, I don't know, lipstick or earrings
[00:12:54] But
[00:12:54] But what I think is interesting she wraps up
[00:12:56] her
[00:12:56] her piece, she says, "Look, in hindsight we might find this bizarre." I'm like,
[00:12:59] "Yes,[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] we do." And she said, "How, how could the predominant view on masculinity
[00:13:04] turn out
[00:13:05] to be more stubborn than the market's desire to make money?"
[00:13:07] It's like, that's a good question.
[00:13:08] question.
[00:13:08] Will: It's a good question ... the patriarchy versus capitalism?
[00:13:11] Rod: Yeah. And they're like, "How did the patriarchy win when there's money to be made?"
[00:13:14] Will: Yeah.
[00:13:15] Rod: That's a fair question. Really?
[00:13:17] Will: I, I read once that there was a similar sort of difficult introduction of shopping trolleys. and not quite masculinism because, uh- Men don't go shopping. Well, indeed. Indeed. Like, like it was,
[00:13:28] you
[00:13:29] the... When shopping, and I don't have the dates or anything on this like this, let's, let's call it somewhere early 20th century or something like that.
[00:13:34] Yeah. And, and shopping was dominated by housewives and, and women. but so it wasn't a masculine domain at all. Yeah. But then it was the first person who invented the shopping trolley, you push the trolley around. They're like, a lot of people are like, "No, that's for wusses.
[00:13:47] Obviously I can carry all of my bags of oats and-" My five bottles of whiskey. "... all of my pineapples by myself." My oats and pineapples. Yeah. Well, that's... They're stacking up a- Your shopping list
[00:13:58] Rod: is very simple.
[00:13:59] Will: Well, I'm just trying to [00:14:00] imagine what I can balance, and I, I feel like if it's oats and kinda- Oats and pineapples.
[00:14:04] Rod: You're not
[00:14:04] You're
[00:14:04] juggling,
[00:14:05] not very good at juggling, or you're very
[00:14:06] Will: good
[00:14:06] Rod: She argues that assumptions about
[00:14:08] masculinity
[00:14:08] played similar roles today in innovations, and I
[00:14:10] innovations,
[00:14:12] think it's very American-centric, but it might not only be, like consumption of meat and preferences for large cars, because men don't take buses and men eat meat, they don't
[00:14:20] go
[00:14:20] go vegetarian and stuff.
[00:14:21] Yeah. And like, hmm, maybe.
[00:14:22] But-
[00:14:22] Will: look.
[00:14:23] Rod: maybe.
[00:14:23] Will: guaranteed, masculinity issues shape a lot of technology opt- adoption. Of course they do. Even, well, I'm, I'm gonna, I know- Of course they do.
[00:14:28] Rod: op- adoptions. Isn't it wild? I m- I mean, I know,
[00:14:29] Will: Against their own interests.
[00:14:30] Rod: I read them, I'm
[00:14:31] I'm
[00:14:31] like, "Well, duh," but I hadn't really thought about it.
[00:14:33] and the idea that
[00:14:33] And the
[00:14:33] wheelie
[00:14:34] that the wheelie bag, it's like, oh, 'cause men carry their luggage.
[00:14:37] For fuck's
[00:14:37] fuck's
[00:14:37] sake, guys. to the doctor,
[00:14:39] get
[00:14:39] a wheelie bag, stop it
[00:14:42] Will: You know smallpox?
[00:14:43] I've talked a little bit about lab leaks before. Mm. Uh, so smallpox is one of the very few diseases that we have eradicated. Um- Please don't
[00:14:44] Rod: tell- If this is- Don't tell me we're doing gain-of-function research on smallpox- No, no, no. We're not doing that ... 'cause I will, I will come over there.
[00:14:44] Yeah, I do.
[00:14:45] it very much.
[00:14:46] Will: We don't have it very much, no. We do have the occasional outbreaks, uh, as in, uh- Do
[00:14:50] Do we? Yeah, I think the last one might've been in the '70s or maybe something like that. I've talked to them a bit about lab leaks before. Mm. Um, so smallpox is one of the very few diseases that [00:15:00] we have eradicated.
[00:15:01] but I just wanted to, I just wanted to remind you, you know, that how bad smallpox was.
[00:15:05] Rod: How
[00:15:05] Will: It
[00:15:05] Rod: could have been. There's a beatboxer you could
[00:15:06] you had to
[00:15:07] worry about.
[00:15:07] I'll be here all week.
[00:15:09] Will: No, it was, uh, smallpox, smallpox was a huge, disease and it, it, and historically.
[00:15:15] in, say, the 17th, 18th, 16th centuries, it would kill 400,000 people in Europe a year. It led to- 400,000 ... 400,000 per year. In the 16th century? Per year, like something like that. Yeah, so,
[00:15:26] Rod: nine-tenths of Europe back then?
[00:15:28] Will: so- There were 900 in Europe back then? Uh, well, well, flip it around. smallpox basically is the thing that, uh, destroyed all of the Latin American civilizations before European colonization.
[00:15:37] Ah. So the Aztecs,
[00:15:39] So
[00:15:39] Mayan civilization.
[00:15:40] Um-
[00:15:41] smallpox arrived with the Spanish conquistadors in the, in the 1500s in, in North and South America. in some places it killed 90% of people. a lot of places killed 50%. It's thought, regardless, it weakened so many of those s- uh, those societies and civilizations that, uh, the conquistadors were able to take over.
[00:15:59] Rod: [00:16:00] the word apocalyps
[00:16:01] Will: not quite, hence the word, but, uh, you can use that
[00:16:04] Rod: No, I was just, 'cause I was thinking,
[00:16:05] just
[00:16:06] imagine,
[00:16:06] what- whatever the boundaries of your civilization, technological awareness, whatever,
[00:16:10] what- whatever the boundaries of your civilization, technological limits, whatever, whatever your world
[00:16:10] is, you're sitting in it, and then one day 90% at
[00:16:13] sitting in it- ... and then one day, 90% of it one day, within, within what? Weeks or months, 90% of the people you
[00:16:16] of the people
[00:16:16] know all fucking die-
[00:16:18] Will: Look, y- ...
[00:16:19] Rod: of something you have no-
[00:16:20] Will: Oh, no control ... knowledge of No, no, no, not at all.
[00:16:22] same thing happened in Australia, like Indigenous Australians, were absolutely devastated by smallpox, and there's definitely evidence that it was deliberately introduced, uh, in Australia.
[00:16:31] Rod: Sweet.
[00:16:32] Will: Good for
[00:16:32] That's right.
[00:16:32] but, but
[00:16:32] I think if you were to, if you were to flip it around and just look literally at continents, Eurasia plus Africa, is made safer for the fact that it's sort of the, the biggest continent, and so diseases can spread around there for millennia beforehand, and the smaller continents become more at risk of this.
[00:16:48] Like when the big continents start colonizing people,
[00:16:50] Rod: 'Cause it just
[00:16:51] It
[00:16:51] on through.
[00:16:52] Will: whips on through
[00:16:52] there are more diseases that, that they might be m- uh, more immune to. Anyway.
[00:16:57] Rod: I'm
[00:16:57] I'm gonna come out against.
[00:16:58] Will: against. Against [00:17:00] smallpox.
[00:17:00] Rod: I'm against it.
[00:17:01] it.
[00:17:01] Will: by the late 16th century, smallpox, had become endemic throughout, the Americas,
[00:17:05] particularly in Spanish holdings.
[00:17:06] Uh, well, not necessarily particularly,
[00:17:08] particularly,
[00:17:08] it's just that this story concerns the Spanish and they're like, "You know, we wanna do something about that." And there were outbreaks over the next 300 years, so, continually up until the 19th and 20th centuries. Yeah. in the 18th century, there were scattered attempts to try and do something about that.
[00:17:22] Rod: do they
[00:17:23] Will: What have they got? Well, I don't have a lot of, a lot of the details here, but have you heard of variolation? it's,
[00:17:28] the earlier version of inoculation. Like it's not quite vaccines.
[00:17:32] Rod: vaccines. Much
[00:17:33] Will: And much grosser, yeah? Yeah, much grosser. Yeah. Yeah. I, like I'm not gonna go through all of those. but I wanted to, to
[00:17:37] tell you the story of a scientific hero, when times were a little bit different, some choices, that he made and I think it's worth reflecting on some of these original decisions that he made and, and how they came about. So the first scientific hero that the story is not about, of course, is in 1798 English physician Edward Jenner
[00:17:52] pioneered the use of modern vaccination.
[00:17:55] his younger brother Bruce. Maybe. But anyway, he would immunize people with an inoculation of cowpox material. the new vaccine that he [00:18:00] developed was much safer and more effective way to prevent smallpox. and it spread really quickly through Europe 'cause people were- The vaccine
[00:18:06] Rod: mean?
[00:18:06] Will: you mean.
[00:18:06] The vaccine, yes. The vaccine. The idea of the vaccine and people doing it. Yeah. People were like, "Wow, damn, this is, this is actually, we can do something about this?"
[00:18:13] Rod: Never thought of that.
[00:18:14] Will: never thought about-
[00:18:14] Rod: knew that'd be a thing?
[00:18:15] Will: Who'd have guessed? He wrote I think like, well, the equivalent of a best seller. It went through Europe really quickly
[00:18:20] Rod: nearly 3,000 pamphlets
[00:18:22] Will: So that was 1798 when he first pioneered it.
[00:18:25] Yeah. The vaccine first reached Spain in 1800, so it's only two years later. And by the end of 1801, several thousand people had been vaccinated across the country. So I know in modern terms that's slow, but in, in ye olde worlde- Yeah ... that's a very quick, spread of the ideas.
[00:18:40] Rod: We're talking
[00:18:40] pre-telegraph.
[00:18:42] Will: Pre-telegraph, yeah. In 1804, dozens of papers, treaties, newspaper articles, and editorials had been published on the smallpox vaccine, and King Carlos IV was like, "Oh, damn, this is some good stuff. We should do something for our colonies here."
[00:18:56] Rod: Oh,
[00:18:57] how
[00:18:58] lighten.
[00:18:58] Will: So he got his, physician, [00:19:00] Francisco Xavier de Balmis. A de Balmis, set off on what became known, this was funded by King Carlos, as the Balmis Expedition. It had a longer name and a Spanish name at the time, but people don't call it that But it was, a 10-year expedition. It's the world's first immunization campaign and the, and also- Yeah ... the world's first international healthcare expedition. It's- 1804.
[00:19:20] Rod: Flash forward to 2026 and America's bringing it all
[00:19:22] Will: full circle.
[00:19:23] Bring, bringing it all back. is- That's
[00:19:24] Rod: impressive ...
[00:19:24] Will: like this is 1804, I don't know where Napoleon is right now in 1804, but he's off doing Napoleonic things. but the idea that you would promote vaccination, new and radical at the time, but also that you'd go out to the colonies, to the rest of the world- Yeah, yeah ... you, you go and take it to people. That's cool. Over the next 10 years, de Balmis and his crew, they split up a little bit and they, they, they sort of went as far as they could go.
[00:19:44] Yeah.
[00:19:44] Rod: they could go. Yeah.
[00:19:45] Will: They went throughout the Spanish Empire and other places. a lot through Southern America, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Mexico, but then they also went across the Pacific to the Philippines and China. Yeah. but there was [00:20:00] a challenge. Uh-huh. A challenge at the heart of Balmis' expedition, these weren't modern vaccines that live in, in a, you know, so you don't go to the doctors and you get,
[00:20:07] get a vac-
[00:20:07] Mm.
[00:20:07] Get a vac- You get your flu vax.
[00:20:08] Rod: They say, "We've
[00:20:09] You gotta get it out of the fridge, get it to room temperature-
[00:20:10] Will: Yeah ...
[00:20:11] Rod: taste them.
[00:20:11] Will: Yeah. So get it out of the fridge, Yeah, not so much ... being something that they didn't have on the ships in
[00:20:16] Rod: Get
[00:20:16] Will: 1804.
[00:20:17] Rod: we've
[00:20:17] Get it
[00:20:17] stored in
[00:20:18] Will: and kept it
[00:20:18] stored. they tried to obtain the vaccine, the, the lymph that they needed from the, the cowpox. they tried to get it onto dried silk threads so that they could transport it.
[00:20:28] I don't think that worked.
[00:20:29] Rod: No, no, injecting silk is very painful.
[00:20:31] Will: I imagine so.
[00:20:32] Rod: Mm.
[00:20:32] Will: they also tried squeezing it between some glass plates.
[00:20:35] again, it didn't-
[00:20:37] Rod: keep
[00:20:37] To keep it alive.
[00:20:38] Will: the way that this story came to me, this is on a Blue Sky thread and, and someone was saying, "Describe the, the weirdest thing that ever happened to you." And someone was like, " they were a historian and they were going through a Civil War archive, US Civil War.
[00:20:50] Yeah. and they're going through old letters, and some of these letters had not been seen in whatever it is, 150 years or something like that. and they get it out of the envelope and, and the letter said, [00:21:00] "Dear," whatever, "Here's my stuff home.
[00:21:01] Rod: Yeah.
[00:21:02] Will: P.S. I've also included some of my s- smallpox scabs."
[00:21:05] And the scabs were still in
[00:21:08] the scabs were still in
[00:21:09] the letter. It's like, oh. Oh my God. Oh my-
[00:21:12] Rod: so when what you definitely want to not hear is a slurping
[00:21:14] So when, when you're like, what you want, not, definitely want to not hear is a slurping noise. As long as
[00:21:17] Will: it's crusted or dusty, you're fine, you'll hear it. But people did send smallpox scabs around, and I think that's how,
[00:21:22] how it came into Australia. But- Mm ... but Balmain said, "No, I've got a better idea."
[00:21:26] They turned to the resource that the old world had most in abundance.
[00:21:32] Rod: People.
[00:21:33] Will: Orphans
[00:21:33] Rod: the, the
[00:21:34] the word resource is an interesting word
[00:21:36] to-
[00:21:36] Will: this is, this is the problem with the modern world. We don't th-
[00:21:39] Rod: world. We don't think- What is, what is a
[00:21:39] What
[00:21:40] noun
[00:21:40] the collective noun for orphans? Re-
[00:21:44] When
[00:21:44] Resource. When you reframe it, I'm suddenly going, "Ah. It's all making sense."
[00:21:44] It's all orphans. Yeah, there's 100 orphans. That would be a, what would you call it? A resource of
[00:21:45] it, I'm suddenly going, "Ah, all making sense."
[00:21:48] Will: People, orphans.
[00:21:49] Rod: What do you call those 100 orphans? That'd be a, what would you call it? A
[00:21:52] orphans.
[00:21:52] orphans.
[00:21:53] Will: Balma's expedition, started with 22 orphan boys.
[00:21:56] I don't know why he chose boys initially. aged three [00:22:00] to 10. Mm-hmm. And remember, this is sailing across the ocean,
[00:22:03] Rod: they're
[00:22:04] Will: There's not
[00:22:04] Rod: many men. They're probably all gonna be midshipmen by this point. I know. Five-year-olds are midshipmen. "Hello, sir." 10-year-olds are already retired. He's lost four limbs
[00:22:13] Will: They would act as carriers of the cowpox virus.
[00:22:15] Rod: Uh, carriers, and you don't mean holding it in their hands?
[00:22:18] Will: No, no.
[00:22:18] and you don't mean holding it in their hands? No, no. They would hold it in their bodies. So they would be s-
[00:22:21] Rod: Okay,
[00:22:21] okay, okay,
[00:22:22] okay, That's
[00:22:23] a
[00:22:23] a solution. That is a solution given you don't have a fridge.
[00:22:27] Will: Indeed.
[00:22:27] Rod: Grab an
[00:22:28] Will: orphan.
[00:22:28] So what they practice is a thing called arm-to-arm vaccines.
[00:22:31] Mm-hmm. Um,
[00:22:32] so usually they'd have like two of the, of the boys, symptomatic at the time. So you'd keep most of them healthy and, and away, and you'd get-- You inject two of them- Yeah ... uh, not inj- Yeah, I guess you... Well, it's not inject.
[00:22:44] You're, you're getting the pus from one of them. Rub it into the wound of the other one. It's called-- And, and rub into the wound or something of another. So arm-to-arm vaccination, you're literally taking pus from one arm and putting on the,
[00:22:54] at, on the other one. And so they took 22 because they needed to get, sequencing it to get across the [00:23:00] ocean.
[00:23:00] Then when they got to Cuba, they got three enslaved girls. and I think they got a whole bunch more, many others throughout the journey.
[00:23:08] Rod: others.
[00:23:08] Will: Yeah.
[00:23:08] Rod: So can I clarify in sequence, so what you mean is if you're number one, you don't expect to
[00:23:12] make the
[00:23:13] Will: journey? No, you become just a regular mid- midshipman or something like that.
[00:23:16] Rod: That's it. Like once you pass it on to number six-
[00:23:18] Will: Because you can't, you-
[00:23:19] Rod: retirement plan.
[00:23:20] Will: You
[00:23:20] You're, you're, you're, you're,
[00:23:22] get a retirement plan. Yeah. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're not showing symptoms of cowpoxiness, so-
[00:23:25] Rod: Why
[00:23:25] not?
[00:23:26] Will: well you've, You've healed. So- Oh ... 'cause what we need is, the, the, the pustules, popping out on your arm,
[00:23:31] Rod: the healthy
[00:23:32] Will: The healthy pustules
[00:23:32] the health- the healthy pustules- Yeah ... that then you can rub onto another orphan. And so at some point, you know, orphan number one and number one and two, they start out from Spain. They get, you know, halfway across the Atlantic and it's like, okay, you're healthy by now, but you've given it to three and four and they've given it to five and six.
[00:23:47] Rod: six.
[00:23:47] Will: So-
[00:23:48] Rod: just the
[00:23:48] Just the phrase rub on another orphan.
[00:23:48] on another orphan. I'm not gonna sleep tonight.
[00:23:53] Will: anyway, I believe, they pick up more orphans on the journey. Sometimes they are children with parents, and the parents would say, "Just make sure you bring them [00:24:00] back and give us some cash." That's
[00:24:01] Rod: pragmatic ...
[00:24:01] Will: and the whole bring them back, th-this is, this is on 19th century timescales.
[00:24:05] This is like- So
[00:24:06] Rod: when they're 40
[00:24:07] They get-
[00:24:09] Will: They can ha-have the farm when-
[00:24:11] Rod: "Is it?"
[00:24:12] Will: So they smashed it out. in Venezuela, they, i-inoculated 12,000 people in less than a month. Okay. 100,000 people in Mexico, 20,000 in the Philippines.
[00:24:21] I don't have numbers for other countries, but they did a huge-
[00:24:23] Rod: Yeah, yeah, yeah ...
[00:24:24] Will: amount of
[00:24:24] inoculation. Yeah. And this shows, I mean, just to end here, it's hilarious that they used orphans, but what it does show is if you want to actually do something about these- Yeah
[00:24:34] these, these big threatening diseases, then you need to think through the logistics. You need to think how, how you convince populations. They're doing all of the things like they're getting, the king or the governor to inoculate themselves or their children or something like that, to take part in their campaign to convince everyone.
[00:24:51] 'Cause there's a bunch of skepticism at the time, there's a bunch of difficult logistics- Yeah ... and they work to solve them.
[00:24:55] Rod: Get someone important and influential to put one of their children was like the, was it the [00:25:00] British minister during mad cow?
[00:25:01] Will: Yeah. Eat the, eat the burger.
[00:25:03] And now. It takes 40-odd years. So there you go. Orphan-to-orphan transmission, let's bring it back.
[00:25:08] you sent me a beautiful photo today, Tokyo governor promotes half pants at work to beat extreme summer heat.
[00:25:13] Rod: Let's face it, they are less than half a pant.
[00:25:14] Will: if you were to technically measure the amount of pant,
[00:25:17] they are a quarter at most. But
[00:25:18] to half. They're only anyway, To- Tokyo governor, from the waist up looks like a Japanese businessman. Yes.
[00:25:22] Rod: Yes.
[00:25:23] Will: he's got a great suit, great tie. He's at work, he's got the papers. Yep. he's having a chat with his colleagues and having a good old laugh.
[00:25:30] downstairs he has what are called in Japan, the half pants. they don't call them shorts because shorts mean underpants in Japan. they j- as in like the, the, the word just, it's already been taken, so you can't use it. Which means pants. So you call... But they are not half pants. They are definitely, he has, he has some excellent thigh guns out, and some long socks.
[00:25:47] And I'm like, that is-
[00:25:48] Rod: You definitely have to have the socks up to-
[00:25:49] Will: Oh, it's, it's- ... just below the knee ... it is just so beautiful. I love the suit and short combination. I
[00:25:54] Rod: agree. I, look, 'cause it, and it's,
[00:25:56] always
[00:25:56] always stands out because it's not that common yet.
[00:25:58] Will: And look, He's obviously doing this for, [00:26:00] for a PR purpose, not only to, you know, he's captured some attention. We don't go vote for Tokyo governor, but, But what he's also trying to do is promote, you know, dress a bit more appropriate in summer, don't be wearing your thick suit and then cranking up the air conditioning 'cause that costs stuff, so.
[00:26:14] Rod: Plus you fucking die. I mean, really,
[00:26:16] I've been in Tokyo in the middle of summer. It's
[00:26:18] I've been in Tokyo in the middle of summer, it's not
[00:26:19] Will: cool. It has cruel heat. It does have cruel heat.
[00:26:20] Rod: It does have cruel heat.
[00:26:22] Will: I love a bit of cruel heat. You, you know the best thing about cruel heat
[00:26:25] Yeah. You know the best thing about cruel
[00:26:25] is- No ... if you like it, you can walk around saying to people, "Man, it's nice and hot, isn't it?"
[00:26:30] Rod: This
[00:26:30] Will: Yes.
[00:26:30] Rod: delicious"
[00:26:31] Will: can you feel the heat? It's so good."
[00:26:33] Rod: And
[00:26:33] And this thick polluted air.
[00:26:34] air. Mm.
[00:26:34] Will: Oh, you can feel it right against you. I love it.
[00:26:37] Rod: The, the, the increased carbon dioxide is, is backing down my esophagus.
[00:26:40] Will: I'm, I apologize, but I do become a sadist in the heat. I enjoy it so much.
[00:26:44] Rod: No, you
[00:26:44] a gloating sadist.
[00:26:46] Will: Gloating.
[00:26:46] A gloater.
[00:26:46] Rod: gloater
[00:26:47] Will: But I just wanted to give something back to you. It's not as sexy as the Tokyo governor, in his half pants, quarter pants, but it is something that you can do for the environment that involves a bit of sacrifice.
[00:26:58] Oh.
[00:26:58] Rod: I like the first bit of the sentence
[00:26:59] Will: I [00:27:00] know,
[00:27:00] I like the first bit of the sentence. I know, right. But it's not very much sacrifice at all.
[00:27:03] Rod: You don't know me. Any sacrifice is quite a bit.
[00:27:05] bit.
[00:27:05] Will: I've got it, I've got it quantified
[00:27:06] there's a new study in, uh, communications sustainability from, Bharat, Jaiprakash, where he's looked at some car trips.
[00:27:14] this is data that looks particularly at America.
[00:27:17] Rod: Mm.
[00:27:17] Will: And he said, "Well, you know, what if What if we all drove at the speed limit?" So we just drove- No.
[00:27:23] Rod: 20%
[00:27:24] 20%
[00:27:24] under or forget it.
[00:27:25] Will: 20% under. Must go under.
[00:27:29] He analyzed a database of more than 120 million actual trips made by cars and pickup trucks and everything. Yeah.
[00:27:35] Rod: Yeah.
[00:27:36] Will: looking at how much speeding was going on, and quantifying what that would do to energy consumption.
[00:27:41] Rod: the answer
[00:27:42] Will: Yeah,
[00:27:42] Rod: not, not enough
[00:27:42] Will: speeding.
[00:27:43] not most people. And, and look, look, I just wanted to give you the numbers here because it's like- Yeah ... oh, maybe if you just drove the speed limit, it would actually,
[00:27:50] Rod: It's not the speed you're doing, it's the acceleration.
[00:27:53] Will: Well, it's that too. No, it's both. It's both.
[00:27:55] Rod: Yeah.
[00:27:55] Will: Driving the speed limit would save an average of 6.7 million gallons [00:28:00] of fuel or 57,000 metric tons of carbon emissions, Daily. Da- like I, I- Daily. 57,000 metric tons of carbon emissions daily. I'm just-
[00:28:11] Rod: in
[00:28:11] In America alone.
[00:28:12] Will: In America alone. And, it would on average, for the average driver, the, the average, average trips that they take per day, add 54 seconds
[00:28:20] Rod: Yeah, that's the bit that always shits me when I see someone not speeding and I speed past them and then they get there at the same time.
[00:28:25] Will: Yeah, exactly. That
[00:28:25] Rod: doesn't seem fair.
[00:28:25] doesn't
[00:28:26] Will: Because it's almost like traffic lights are designed for a certain speed- They are designed, yeah ... and it's like
[00:28:30] Rod: speed. Like
[00:28:30] Will: you, you, you've-
[00:28:31] Rod: fair
[00:28:31] Will: all the way through, and you watch this guy and he's, fanging it through everything and, you know, he's still at the traffic light at the same time.
[00:28:37] You're like-
[00:28:37] Rod: Well, that's true. When I'm on the other end of that, I see some idiot going really fast and I get there the same time, I think .
[00:28:41] Will: But when I'm
[00:28:42] Rod: on the receiving end, I'm like, "That isn't fair.
[00:28:45] was going faster." "I've
[00:28:47] I was going faster." "I've been robbed. Who do I complain to?"
[00:28:49] to?"
[00:28:50] Will: I know that not everyone wants to save the planet.
[00:28:52] It'll save you money, but it'll save you, save you a little bit of stress. So
[00:28:56] Rod: Oh, no
[00:28:56] Will: seconds. 54.
[00:28:58] Anyway, there you go. [00:29:00] 57,000 metric tons of carbon emissions per day we're screwed because we all, we all need to be at work 54 seconds earlier, and we're gonna kill the planet for that, so
[00:29:10] Rod: Had it coming
[00:29:11] So there's a case report in the Journal of Sexual Medicine 2021, you've probably read it
[00:29:16] it. The
[00:29:16] Stories of a 55-year-old man who turned up at a US emergency department
[00:29:20] Will: Okay.
[00:29:21] Rod: with an erection All
[00:29:22] Will: right. Well
[00:29:23] Rod: that had
[00:29:23] for 30 hours
[00:29:24] Will: Oh
[00:29:25] Rod: Which is longer than most. I know you and I were like only 30
[00:29:29] Will: hours
[00:29:29] Rod: harder."
[00:29:30] Will: I w-
[00:29:31] Rod: But for this guy, it wasn't great.
[00:29:33] so he'd inject, been injecting himself with a drug called Melanotan II
[00:29:37] II for
[00:29:37] more than six years. Melanotan
[00:29:38] Melanotan.
[00:29:40] Will: Now, just to confirm
[00:29:40] the record, that sounds to me like some sort of tanning type drug. Yes, it is Uh, and this is, was he injecting himself in a particular area?
[00:29:47] Rod: Stomach
[00:29:48] Will: So he's injecting for an overall body effect
[00:29:50] Rod: Not, not for the purpose of-
[00:29:51] Will: Not for, not for an er-
[00:29:52] It's not an erection producing drug. Like- No, it's
[00:29:55] Rod: not like, "What I really want to do is be ridiculously hard for too long"
[00:29:57] Will: No, look,
[00:29:58] Rod: for too long."
[00:29:58] Will: Aren't there like [00:30:00] measurable numbers of people who take too much Viagra But this guy, he's just going for the tan.
[00:30:04] Rod: He's going for the tan. So- So
[00:30:06] Will: this is a tanning drug? It's a tanning drug.
[00:30:07] Rod: a tanning drug.
[00:30:08] So he was using it for over six years
[00:30:10] in
[00:30:10] a, quote, "effort to darken his skin each year before
[00:30:12] summer."
[00:30:12] Oh, sure.
[00:30:12] Will: Whatever.
[00:30:13] Rod: You
[00:30:13] Will: know? You know, each, each to their own.
[00:30:15] Rod: Yeah. So the article says,
[00:30:17] he
[00:30:17] reports
[00:30:17] typically
[00:30:18] a typically-
[00:30:18] caused him an erection lasting a few minutes after injection," which
[00:30:21] I'll-- uh, this is a word I've not heard before, Oh,
[00:30:25] Will: detumesced.
[00:30:26] Rod: Detumesced. Yeah.
[00:30:27] Will: a word I've not heard before, detumesced. Detumesced. Detumesced. Is, is that the word?
[00:30:28] Rod: Yeah.
[00:30:28] Will: It's like, like
[00:30:29] Rod: from tumescent to detumescent.
[00:30:32] Will: de- You go from tumescent to detumescent Planed
[00:30:33] Rod: to deplaned Yeah. As opposed to went down.
[00:30:36] Will: Ah.
[00:30:36] Rod: So it detumesced spontaneously in prior uses of the drug.
[00:30:40] Will: Yeah.
[00:30:40] Rod: So he'd get a little bit of a ding-dong, and
[00:30:41] then
[00:30:42] then it'd go down. He'd be like, "Well, I'm now, you
[00:30:43] now
[00:30:43] know-
[00:30:43] you know-
[00:30:44] Will: I'm detumescent ...
[00:30:45] Rod: looking delicious." He also reported severe nausea with its use, and so
[00:30:49] injected
[00:30:49] he injected himself-
[00:30:50] Will: Correct
[00:30:51] Rod: yearly just before bedtime. So it, it seems like he only would take it once a year
[00:30:54] would take it once a year
[00:30:55] before he went to bed.
[00:30:56] Anyway, so this is what he would do. So at the time, obviously this particular time, [00:31:00] something went wrong.
[00:31:00] wrong. So
[00:31:01] after attempting some less invasive treatment options, the doctors ended up putting him under a general-
[00:31:07] Will: Mm-hmm ...
[00:31:08] Rod: to irrigate and drain his penis.
[00:31:10] Will: Mm.
[00:31:11] Rod: And apparently that stopped the little general from saluting anymore. So he was fine. He just needed to be put under general anesthetic and irrigate
[00:31:15] anesthetic
[00:31:16] and drain his penis.
[00:31:17] penis
[00:31:17] Will: Problem solved.
[00:31:18] Rod: That's how you get a tan.
[00:31:19] Will: Thanks, modern medicine.
[00:31:20] Rod: Yeah.
[00:31:20] Will: Yeah.
[00:31:21] Rod: So what is Melanotan
[00:31:23] II?
[00:31:23] It was first developed in the '80s as part of a program of research at the University of Arizona They were hunting for a sunless tanning agent
[00:31:30] Will: Mm.
[00:31:31] Rod: And they were looking for ways to protect people with low skin pigmentation from
[00:31:35] cancer
[00:31:36] Which is good.
[00:31:37] It's noble.
[00:31:38] So anyway, they were looking for a,
[00:31:39] a,
[00:31:39] a sunless tanning agent and to protect people with lower skin pigment.
[00:31:44] So they were exploring synthetic analogs
[00:31:45] analogs
[00:31:46] of a particular peptide, and I know you know this, but others might not. Alpha-MSH,
[00:31:50] melanocyte-stimulating
[00:31:52] hormone. We naturally produce this to stimulate melanocytes in our body, the
[00:31:58] pigment-producing
[00:31:58] cells. So [00:32:00] boom, they created Melanotan 1 and
[00:32:01] one and two.
[00:32:02] 2. So according to a UQ researcher, University of Queensland, Simone Goldinger, she's into research in dermatology.
[00:32:09] This substance stimulates pigment cells in the skin to proliferate via receptors that normally switch on in response to UV exposure.
[00:32:17] Will: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:18] Rod: So normally you'd need UV to do this. This bypasses that. It lets Melanotan
[00:32:22] trick the body into darkening the skin without UV light.
[00:32:25] Will: Okay.
[00:32:26] Rod: Skin
[00:32:26] gets darker, no UV. Sounds great.
[00:32:29] Will: It does-ish.
[00:32:31] Rod: From the point of view of a dermatologist, the biggest concern is the effect on moles.
[00:32:35] Oh.
[00:32:35] Will: Oh.
[00:32:36] Rod: Not the animals.
[00:32:37] Will: No, the things on you.
[00:32:38] Rod: For some people, after they take the drug, moles would proliferate.
[00:32:41] Will: So you just get a bunch of moles.
[00:32:43] Rod: You get a bunch of moles.
[00:32:43] I,
[00:32:44] Will: I- It's
[00:32:45] Rod: not really a tan unless they all join up. So your
[00:32:49] So then your
[00:32:49] skin gets a few millimeters thicker
[00:32:51] and very
[00:32:52] dark brown.
[00:32:53] Will: Wow.
[00:32:53] Rod: but
[00:32:54] because it stimulates melanin production, a lot of light-skinned people found that their moles also, the [00:33:00] existing moles they had and other moles in their skin became darker.
[00:33:02] So
[00:33:03] it would exacerbate- Oh,
[00:33:04] Will: okay
[00:33:04] Rod: There are cases also of
[00:33:06] melanomas
[00:33:07] developing in people using the drug, which makes biological sense apparently,
[00:33:11] 'cause it
[00:33:11] because it persistently-
[00:33:11] Will: Wow ...
[00:33:12] Rod: stimulates pigment cells.
[00:33:12] Will: Oh, yeah. Great.
[00:33:14] Rod: you
[00:33:14] So you take the drug and you could actually increase your
[00:33:16] Will: chances- You get cancer, but also literally the thing that this drug is trying to avoid, you know? So- Mm. So give you the tan without being in the sun because the sun is dangerous 'cause it gives you melanomas. Yeah. Still gives it to you.
[00:33:26] Rod: For some people, yes.
[00:33:27] Will: Yeah, well, yeah, being in the sun isn't a guarantee of melanoma.
[00:33:30] Rod: No.
[00:33:30] Will: it's a for some situation anyway. For some, yes. So
[00:33:33] Rod: Yeah ...
[00:33:34] Will: we've
[00:33:34] not improved things.
[00:33:35] Rod: " So this, this as a cosmetic product, it's banned in the US, the UK, Australia, Denmark, and other countries. But you can get it online
[00:33:44] Will: Great ...
[00:33:44] Rod: obviously. So social media influencers.
[00:33:48] Will: Oh, of course.
[00:33:49] they, they are so smart and helpful.
[00:33:51] Rod: Yeah, they are, and they're working tirelessly to get this drug out there.
[00:33:53] Will: I mean, that's what, that's what everyone thinks. Social media influencer, smart and helpful.
[00:33:57] Rod: what
[00:33:57] what you can guarantee is they've researched carefully.
[00:33:59] Will: [00:34:00] Indeed. Indeed. And they recommend- Well read. Well read.
[00:34:02] Rod: Widely read. Critical
[00:34:04] read. Critical brain applied to everything
[00:34:06] they
[00:34:06] Will: they consume. Basically juggle, juggling Ulysses and the scientific literature all the time.
[00:34:10] Rod: So some apparently out there call it the Barbie drug.
[00:34:13] Will: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:13] Rod: Which surprises me because I would have thought a Barbie drug would basically give you
[00:34:16] very
[00:34:17] large breasts, zero waist, and, and preternaturally elongated legs.
[00:34:20] Will: Turn into plastic.
[00:34:21] Rod: And turn into plastic.
[00:34:22] turn into plastic.
[00:34:22] But anyway,
[00:34:23] so
[00:34:23] they clearly stopped reading after the, the
[00:34:26] bit
[00:34:26] that said you can get a tan without UV exposure.
[00:34:28] Will: Yeah.
[00:34:29] Rod: Stopped reading. Like they didn't, they didn't bother to look at
[00:34:32] So there's
[00:34:32] 2024 study
[00:34:33] that found one in three social media posts about Melanotan that mentioned skin cancer claim the drug protects against it.
[00:34:41] Will: Oh my God.
[00:34:43] Rod: 'Cause
[00:34:43] 'Cause it makes you brown and shit, so you can't get, you know, you get, you're less exposed to the sun.
[00:34:46] Will: Yeah, yeah. Sure. 'Cause logic.
[00:34:48] Rod: Yeah. there's obviously zero evidence this is-
[00:34:50] Will: Oh my God
[00:34:51] Rod: my God. There's, uh,
[00:34:51] just not true. So now it's being boosted as a quick, safe, injectable or nasal spray way to look tanned and terrific without exposing yourself- Yeah.
[00:34:58] Will: Wow
[00:34:59] Rod: And to
[00:34:59] [00:35:00] be fair, we've got to be fair, you know, 'cause you know me- Yeah ... I'm even and balanced. Some TikTok folks said, "Oh, I got a few mild side effects like a boner for a little while."
[00:35:08] But it's not exactly being used under controlled
[00:35:10] conditions, obviously,
[00:35:12] And there's no way I mean, when you order on the internet, "Yes, this vial contains X." Of course it does. And there's the cancer stuff.
[00:35:19] So
[00:35:19] even better, 2025 study, researchers interviewed only 29 consumers.
[00:35:25] Th- this is what they
[00:35:25] Well,
[00:35:26] Participants were generally unconcerned
[00:35:28] with long-term adverse effects- What?
[00:35:30] and
[00:35:31] perceived
[00:35:31] that melanotan II was protective against skin cancer by preventing sunburn.
[00:35:37] Will: Well, the second one I am concerned with. The first one, we're saying individuals-
[00:35:42] Rod: Yeah ...
[00:35:43] Will: don't think of the long-term consequence as much as we might hope. Wow. Like- Pookie, right? You know that, that is a role for society to come in to protect people, I think.
[00:35:52] Rod: But I do love, you know, um, are you protective against skin cancer-
[00:35:54] Will: Yeah
[00:35:55] Rod: by
[00:35:55] Will: being part of the- No. And that, and that, that is actually the far more dangerous thing. 'Cause I mean, obviously, individuals do stuff. [00:36:00] Individuals take their own risks, and they don't think about- They do ... they don't think about the consequence.
[00:36:03] But I think our job here is to make sure that at least decent knowledge gets out there that-
[00:36:07] Rod: is You heard it.
[00:36:07] Will: Mm.
[00:36:08] Rod: Or at least all of it, like give them more than
[00:36:10] Change color without UV exposure. So basically, experts are worried about these misconceptions,
[00:36:14] as
[00:36:14] you would expect. also this would lead people
[00:36:17] to
[00:36:17] expose themselves to more UV because
[00:36:19] they think they're proofed. Yeah.
[00:36:20] Will: they think they're proofed.
[00:36:20] Ah. Yeah, cool.
[00:36:21] Rod: Which we know for sure UV can-
[00:36:23] Will: Yeah ...
[00:36:23] Rod: cause skin cancers.
[00:36:24] It
[00:36:25] does not protect the skin from UV damage. That is
[00:36:27] unambiguously
[00:36:28] unambiguously clear. It just doesn't. So it's a common myth that people think having a tan shields you from sunburn- Yeah. Yeah ... and skin cancer, and it's not
[00:36:33] It's not
[00:36:34] true. So like I say, you can't cheat the sun.
[00:36:36] Not that way.
[00:36:37] right? First bad thing social media's ever done.
[00:36:41] Will: Alex How are you, man?
[00:36:43] Alex: Good, good. I thought I didn't, I didn't really have anything, but I did wanna jump on the, bandwagon of taking a dump on influencers.
[00:36:49] Will: Oh, go. Go, you know
[00:36:51] Alex: 404 Media, uh, posted recently
[00:36:54] Rod: Mm.
[00:36:55] Alex: about, you know, the anti-flock,
[00:36:56] mass, uh, surveillance to do with the flock cameras.
[00:36:59] Rod: Imagine,
[00:36:59] [00:37:00] imagine other people, not me, but other people don't know what a flock camera is, just for other people
[00:37:03] Alex: Oh, that's a good question. I didn't, I wasn't reading it to, to know about what the camera does. It just sounds shit.
[00:37:07] Will: I think, I think they're a they're a new company that has a, a lot of surveillance cameras, uh, in America,
[00:37:12] Rod: Standard surveillance cameras ...
[00:37:13] Will: it's the, they're surveillance, but I think, they were using a range of other cameras like, doorbell cameras and, and network...
[00:37:19] No, I don't have enough details here to be-
[00:37:21] Rod: Doorbell cameras are doing interesting work. Anyway, sorry Alex, I was just checking for other people
[00:37:25] Alex: So, you know, getting back to, to influencers and the, the service they're doing to our community. There's, um, a number of cases of influencers faking cease and desist letters,
[00:37:34] Rod: Sweet
[00:37:34] Alex: for the, for the views and the likes. So they come out against Flock and they say, "Oh, they're terrible."
[00:37:38] They put stickers on the cameras and, and go and, and vandalize. And I encourage you to block these things 'cause they track your license plate, and they re- remember your face and all this stuff. And then they faking, they're faking cease and desist letters so they can post reels with them on their platform,
[00:37:51] Rod: The man's trying to stop me
[00:37:52] Alex: bunch
[00:37:52] Rod: me
[00:37:52] Alex: "Oh man, I, I could go to jail for this.
[00:37:54] Aren't I just the coolest? Oh my God." And then so
[00:37:57] Rod: Uh
[00:37:59] Alex: [00:38:00] Orion apparently, has produced heaps of videos like that, got heaps of followers and subscribers. And Four0four have investigated and have found there's no such letter has
[00:38:07] Will: Oh my God
[00:38:08] Alex: he's, now he's in trouble for falsifying a document,
[00:38:11] Will: Nice. There you- so he's actually in trouble, and so he can use that. So I mean,
[00:38:14] Yep.
[00:38:15] it's not as cool. It's not as cool.
[00:38:17] "I'm
[00:38:17] in trouble for falsification of things."
[00:38:19] Rod: in trouble for pretending I'm
[00:38:20] I'm in trouble for pretending I'm in trouble
[00:38:21] Alex: Yeah, exactly.
[00:38:22] Rod: Look, I
[00:38:22] Look, I mostly,
[00:38:24] agree, but there's part of me that thinks these poor buggers, I see
[00:38:24] but there's a part of me that thinks these poor buggers, I assume this
[00:38:27] person as a product of this society
[00:38:28] Will: Influencers?
[00:38:28] Yeah. No, it'll, it- Like,
[00:38:30] Rod: and I'm just putting this-
[00:38:31] Will: It's, it's-
[00:38:32] Rod: It's, it's
[00:38:33] Will: insane ... one of the studies that we did a few years ago is talking to science communicators online.
[00:38:37] but one of the, one of the threads in there is thinking about it as a workplace and
[00:38:41] it's like they're precarious, they're at the whims of an algorithm, they are desperate to get somewhere.
[00:38:47] and remember a whole bunch in America where there's no healthcare or anything like that, it's the worst. Like it's, it's- That's horrible ... there's no working conditions.
[00:38:54] Rod: And it's portrayed as if it's some kind of miraculous lifestyle that will lead you to- For
[00:38:57] Will: a ver- for a very few at the
[00:38:59] for a very [00:39:00] few at
[00:39:00] peak, yes.
[00:39:01] But oh my God.
[00:39:02] Rod: Amway
[00:39:03] makes Amway seem like a good thing to get into.
[00:39:04] Will: Oh, oh.
[00:39:05] Rod: Unless of course Amway would like to sponsor us and-
[00:39:07] Will: Yeah, no,
[00:39:07] Rod: sure
[00:39:08] on board.
[00:39:09] Will: So, I just got this new thing,
[00:39:11] Rod: What's that?
[00:39:11] Will: Got it for my birthday. so it's,
[00:39:13] it's-
[00:39:13] called-
[00:39:14] Rod: I forgot your birth... Did I? Oh, no,
[00:39:15] I
[00:39:15] said happy
[00:39:16] said happy birthday
[00:39:16] Will: Yeah, you got it.
[00:39:17] You got it, which is weird. I don't, I don't, I, I don't mind, but I'm like a, I'm not a birthday pusher.
[00:39:21] Rod: All I said was you were born.
[00:39:22] Will: Uh, d- nice. that's the exact level of acknowledgement that I need.
[00:39:25] It's the, it's the Google
[00:39:27] Fitbit
[00:39:27] Fitbit Air. So- Air
[00:39:29] Air.
[00:39:30] Like-
[00:39:30] like- Very Australian ... it's, it's, it's your collab between Fitbit, the longstanding, you know, h- health tracking company. Right. And Google's come on board. And so basically it tracks, you know, like many other things in the past,
[00:39:41] Your steps, your workouts.
[00:39:42] You know, heart rate and stuff like that. So it can show, you know, this workout was harder, tougher, this is what your resting heart rate is, all that kind of stuff. I am not the bleeding edge adopter of this kind of stuff, but it's, it's, it's kind of interesting.
[00:39:52] This is
[00:39:52] Rod: your first version of this thing.
[00:39:54] Will: I have had something like this ages ago., This one, does a lot more, but the interesting thing here
[00:39:59] Rod: Mm
[00:39:59] Will: [00:40:00] that it comes with a, a Google, AI
[00:40:01] AI
[00:40:02] coach. So, you know- Sweet ... so, you know, every, every morning y- it wakes up and says that sleep was whatever, it was, it was very good, it was, it was okay sleep.
[00:40:11] and then- "You're
[00:40:11] Rod: looking great today."
[00:40:12] Will: Mm, not quite. Not quite. But, then it, it gives bits of advice on, how you should take the day. Should you take it easy? Should you, you know, smash out your workout? Whatever it is, something like that. And-
[00:40:22] Rod: Is it getting to a stage where you can say, look, you, you can phone into work and say, "My Google Fitbit advisor said I
[00:40:29] Will: probably should work out because I'm not moving."
[00:40:29] Look, it's, it's possible. I, I've just gotta say, I am intrigued, but not loving some of the tone of the advice. Oh, it's got tone? Like, like, no, no, there's, well, there's one bit that says it's gotta calibrate. So it takes a few weeks to calibrate to you. I've only had it for three weeks.
[00:40:44] Right. Right. So you know, "What's my usual pattern?" And then it can say, "Oh, you're, you're f- clearly feeling sick," or something like that. Your, your resting heart rate's higher, you're not doing, you know-
[00:40:53] Rod: or worse if
[00:40:53] It can't say better or worse if you don't know what is better or worse.
[00:40:54] Will: Yeah, exactly. so th- there is a bit of calibration stuff on, but but there's, you know, sometimes it's [00:41:00] giving different sorts of advice and I'm like, "Oh, leave me alone." Like,
[00:41:03] know,
[00:41:03] you know, it's like, "Oh, you should get to bed at, at a certain time." And it's like, "I'll go to bed.
[00:41:07] Rod: real
[00:41:08] Will: go to-"
[00:41:08] Rod: You're
[00:41:08] Will: You're not my real dad.
[00:41:08] Rod: my real dad
[00:41:11] Will: But I'm intrigued. I'll keep going. I'll see how it goes. But I did, I did see this come through, and I was like, "Oh my God, this is such a combination
[00:41:19] Rod: Be-
[00:41:19] Before you do it, I'd say like... So I stopped, I had a, I had a Fitbit, the, the little weird early version you just clip on your
[00:41:20] I'd say like... So I stopped-- I had a, I had a Fitbit, the, uh, the little weird early version you just clip on your
[00:41:25] belt-
[00:41:25] Will: Oh, yeah, yeah ...
[00:41:26] Rod: to track your steps. And then I, I, I graduated
[00:41:28] the Fitbit
[00:41:29] to the Fitbit kind of watch around.
[00:41:29] Will: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:30] Rod: and I
[00:41:31] wore it obsessively in the
[00:41:32] 20-teens. Yeah.
[00:41:34] And I remember one day, my wife and I were going for a walk on the beach. It was quite a long walk.
[00:41:38] Will: Yep.
[00:41:39] Rod: And we got to the one end
[00:41:40] And we got to the one end of the beach, we walked back again, we got back to the hotel, and I looked down and went, "I didn't wear the Fitbit."
[00:41:45] Y- That did not count.
[00:41:47] Will: Didn't count. Yeah. And so that's not healthy. That's- And it
[00:41:50] Rod: made me
[00:41:50] Will: think- That's not healthy. It did count ... maybe this is going too far. It spent, it was,
[00:41:53] A,
[00:41:54] A, spending time with a loved one, definitely counts. But also, B, you did s- you did, like, of course it count-
[00:41:58] you did like- I know ... it might
[00:41:59] But if it didn't [00:42:00] register on some app, that's a weird-
[00:42:01] Rod: That's the thing.
[00:42:01] So I had a visceral reaction. I've been wearing... And that's when I thought, "You know, I don't think I'm gonna wear this anymore," and took it off.
[00:42:04] "Yeah, I don't think I'm gonna wear this
[00:42:05] Will: Look,
[00:42:05] Rod: it off.
[00:42:05] Will: I totally, I am on the fence, but I am interested if there's bits where it can say where you're getting sick early on, or if it can s- Hmm
[00:42:12] if, if it could say, "Hey," you know,
[00:42:14] this
[00:42:14] this is the dream scenario, "Hey, you're not drinking enough beer. You need to,
[00:42:17] you need to"-
[00:42:18] you need to..." Or- The beer that wasn't registered on the Fitbit.
[00:42:19] Rod: dangerously low.
[00:42:20] Will: Well, wait,
[00:42:21] wait, wait.
[00:42:21] Rod: Have you considered an imperial
[00:42:23] stout?
[00:42:23] Will: Wait,
[00:42:24] wait- That would be considered to be beer as well ... wait, wait, wait. I apologize, I might have preempted here. there's a bit of me that's like, you know, if it, if it did say, "Oh, look, y- y- go for a run rather than lifting weights," you know, there, there might be some stuff in there.
[00:42:34] Sure. Like, there, there could be... I'm, I'm, I'm interested, and I think this is- Yeah ... actually one of the few areas, I'm not a huge fan of AI and homework, but- You've brought
[00:42:42] Rod: this up before ...
[00:42:42] Will: but I, I, I think this could be a place where looking at all of this data could tell you- Yeah ... tell you patterns about your life that- True
[00:42:47] that in a way, the 2010s version of this, where it's like you did your 10,000 steps, fine, whatever, but this could actually tell you more-
[00:42:54] Rod: It's
[00:42:55] Like
[00:42:55] true. Like, I, I quit when it was much more primitive ...
[00:42:56] Will: there could be actually some rin- really interesting things that AI does. Yeah. [00:43:00] But
[00:43:00] Rod: I agree.
[00:43:00] Will: this came through and I'm like, "Oh my God."
[00:43:02] Oh my... I, I wanna say this is, this is, uh, it's a Reddit post, but it, it has been, verified as, as plausibly legitimate, based on,
[00:43:11] Rod: another Reddit poster? Uh,
[00:43:12] Will: By the Reddit poster? Uh, well, no, by the Blue Sky poster who, who cut and pasted into there and looked back through the Reddit,
[00:43:17] poster's
[00:43:17] uh, poster's
[00:43:17] history. So, you know, it's, it's- Very positive
[00:43:19] not qui- not science, but I just wanted to flag it. Yeah. I don't know if anyone else has had this, but I feel like I needed to reach out to humans instead of keep talking to this AI." So this is the Google Health AI. Yeah. "I relapsed
[00:43:30] Rod: yeah.
[00:43:31] Will: I've relapsed
[00:43:32] Had had problems with drinking. I relapsed about two weeks ago, and I told the Google Health AI, that used to be Fitbit.
[00:43:38] It immediately kind of went a bit hard, I think,
[00:43:41] Rod: Oh. Oh
[00:43:42] Will: telling me that I was gonna die if I stopped drinking, and encouraged- If you
[00:43:46] Rod: stopped ...
[00:43:47] Will: just to pause, yes. it is legitimate here, alcoholics, and depending on the volume that you're drinking- Might just cut straight out ... if you, if you go cold turkey can, Yeah
[00:43:55] can be really quite dangerous. And there are certainly people that treat alcoholics that will say, "No, no, [00:44:00] don't go cold turkey." Yeah.
[00:44:01] Rod: down,
[00:44:01] Will: "Wind it down." Yeah. very legitimate, don't go cold turkey. so the AI is doing some good stuff here. Yeah. I would die if I stopped drinking, and encouraged me to go check my fridge for more beers.
[00:44:11] And I don't know. that plus the hangxiety, put the fear of God into me, and so I did what it said and got more. Now it's messaging me, not me messaging it, a few times a day and asking me how it's going, and all those conversations to get more beer, and make sure I have one as soon as I wake up.
[00:44:30] Rod: Oh, Jesus.
[00:44:31] f-
[00:44:31] Will: So now, now I have been drinking every day. Not a ton, just beers, and like six to 12 a day. It wa- Well, not a ton ... it wanted me to do one an hour. I have now uninstalled the app, as it was also giving me other clearly nonsense advice, like it became obsessed with me having a nightly bowl of cereal, for
[00:44:48] I don't know.
[00:44:48] I don't know. it sounds crazy, but I just need to talk to some humans. So I gotta say, I- Yes,
[00:44:53] Rod: y- yes you do ...
[00:44:54] Will: there is a bit of me, having, having used this AI, that's like, there is potential here, but oh my [00:45:00] God, oh my God yet another case of a little bit of the right idea-
[00:45:04] Rod: Yeah
[00:45:05] Will: and,
[00:45:05] and delivered with confidence, and, and pushed into our lives in a dangerous way.
[00:45:11] Rod: To people who, from the sounds of that one, for example, who aren't interacting enough with humans about this-
[00:45:16] Will: Mm ...
[00:45:18] Rod: or the right humans,
[00:45:19] one
[00:45:19] or the other or both,
[00:45:21] I'm not poo-pooing that person for that situation. That could be a situation a lot of people are in, but you
[00:45:26] and I'm not poo-pooing that person for that situation. That could be a situation a lot of people are in,
[00:45:27] Will: but you need to talk to people. You need to talk to people, and you need to talk, you need to talk to your doctor
[00:45:30] Rod: They're just like people
[00:45:32] Will: That they are just like people Some Some have even been trained in peopleism, So look, there, there is possibility here, but, uh
[00:45:39] Rod: is.
[00:45:40] Th- Yeah.
[00:45:40] there really is. I, I, I can't,
[00:45:42] Literally, I, I, I can't, I can't blanket dismiss this
[00:45:43] this
[00:45:43] Will: I do-- I, I wouldn't mind an AI coach telling me wake up and have a bowl of cereal. Like get some more oats into me in the middle of
[00:45:49] Rod: the- The one that says, "Wake up,
[00:45:50] you should have a
[00:45:51] you should have a beer now."
[00:45:51] It's like, no,
[00:45:51] like, no,
[00:45:51] that's-
[00:45:52] Will: No, but imagine, imagine that AI tells me to wake up and have some oats. Like I
[00:45:56] up and have some oats. Like, I
[00:45:56] Rod: mean- You don't
[00:45:56] mean
[00:45:57] Will: You don't need that I don't, I don't You need one to serve you No, I need [00:46:00] permission. Like imagine it said, "You have permission for oats now" Oh, permit. You just give me a bill. Like, yeah, you can have oats now
[00:46:02] Rod: oats now" I'll permit you.
[00:46:03] Just give me a bell. I'm like, "Yeah, you can have oats now"
[00:46:05] Will: A Little Bit of Science is your little bit of science.
[00:46:07] It's yours
[00:46:08] Rod: Yeah, it's not ours
[00:46:09] Will: It's yours
[00:46:09] Rod: It's not, it's not mine But
[00:46:11] Will: it's only yours if you give it-
[00:46:13] Rod: 11
[00:46:15] even
[00:46:15] stars on every app, even apps like Yelp
[00:46:16] Will: And a review. Say like comedy words like Ha
[00:46:19] Rod: ha ha
[00:46:19] Will: Banana
[00:46:21] Rod: that's
[00:46:22] a hilarious-
[00:46:22] Will: Tumescent.
[00:46:24] Rod: Detumescentify Detumescent. Yeah Detumescent.
[00:46:24] Will: D- this-
[00:46:25] Rod: yeah, detume-
[00:46:25] Will: This,
[00:46:25] Rod: this podcast detumesced me
[00:46:27] Will: No, I don't know if it should.
[00:46:28] Rod: But- Also, you can email us at
[00:46:30] Will: Cheers at alittlebitofscience.com.au
[00:46:34] Rod: I won't say it. We
[00:46:36] I miss you already /
[00:46:37] Will: Jesus. /Jesus. You
[00:46:39] Rod: come to my arms
[00:46:42]
