Is there any evidence-based reason cannibalism shouldn’t make a comeback?” This is a question that really should come with a warning label, but we felt it necessary to really dig into it this week.
We’ve got researchers running the numbers on human-eating, rats in MRI snuggle sacks while tripping on mescaline, ants living their best fake-queen lives thanks to a tapeworm, and an eel story that is both medically relevant and spiritually scarring.
Cannibalism: the idea that keeps trying to sound practical
Some researchers decided to treat cannibalism like a serious option and run a cost-benefit analysis. Which is already a choice, because most of us file cannibalism under “no thanks” and move on with our day.
Their models basically land on: even if you ignore the moral side, regular cannibalism is a terrible long-term plan. You run into disease transmission, supply problems (humans are not exactly a renewable snack), and the small issue of your population collapsing if you keep eating the population.
So yes, taboos are doing a lot of heavy lifting here. It turns out disgust and social rules are not just vibes; they’re a survival strategy.
Rats on mescaline, and the surprisingly delicate art of scanning brains
From “should we eat each other?” we pivot to “how do you scan an animal’s brain without it losing its mind?”, which is a nicer question but still weird. If you’ve ever wondered whether you can put a rat in an MRI while it’s tripping on mescaline, the answer is basically: yes, but you have to be incredibly careful.
There are “snuggle sacks” involved, because animals have to be acclimatised, trained, and handled in ways that don’t turn the scan into a panic response.
And no, you’re not squeezing elephants or blue whales into an MRI machine. But humans have been obsessed with big animals for a long time, which is how we end up with things like the 1865 blue whale taxidermy project that people could once walk into.
Apparently the “walk into the whale’s mouth” experience got shut down after visitors treated it like a private room for activities that were not educational. Which is a sentence that tells you everything you need to know about humanity.
Tapeworms, ants, and the weirdest royal makeover you’ve ever seen
Then we get to parasites, and the uncomfortable truth that sometimes they don’t just harm a host. Sometimes they upgrade it, at least in the short term, because it helps the parasite win.
There’s a tapeworm that infects ants and turns them into pale-yellow pseudo-queens. The infected ants get treated like royalty, fed more, groomed more, and generally looked after by the worker ants like they’ve suddenly become important.
It’s not kindness, it’s manipulation. The tapeworm is basically running a costume party inside an ant colony, and the prize at the end is getting back into the right bird (woodpeckers) to complete its life cycle.
Nature is beautiful. Nature is also a scam.
The eel story, and why some problems should stay unsolved
A Bangladeshi fisherman ended up with an eel in a place eels should never be, after attempting a very ill-advised constipation remedy.
It’s the kind of tale that lives in the “medical case report” category, but also in the “please stop experimenting on yourself” category. If your solution involves wildlife, it is not a solution; it is a new emergency.
So that’s the week: cannibalism analysed like a spreadsheet problem, brain scans with snuggle sacks, parasites cosplaying queens, and an eel that absolutely did not ask to be involved. Stay curious, stay critical, and for the love of all that is holy, keep the eels in the water.
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Introduction
00:28 Should We Be Cannibals?
02:43 Math Model Approach
04:11 Disease Chain Risks
05:42 Kuru And Prions
07:19 Limits And Social Payoffs
08:34 Anthropic: Rare Books AI Scanning
10:53 Destroying Books To Digitise
14:59 Mescaline Rats In MRI
20:52 Rats Head Posts Training
22:36 Other Species Training
24:57 Malm Blue Whale Exhibit
30:10 Cordyceps Ant Zombies
31:01 Tapeworm Queen Ants
34:58 Orcas Fear Pilot Whales
35:46 Eel Medical Oddity
SOURCES:
https://www.sciencealert.com/amazing-footage-shows-how-eels-escape-death-after-being-swallowed
https://www.sciencealert.com/why-you-dont-faint-every-time-you-stand-even-though-you-should
https://www.sciencealert.com/harmful-bacteria-can-trigger-pain-in-your-gut-and-now-we-know-how
https://bsky.app/profile/jordantyranny.bsky.social/post/3mrsiprbgac2k
https://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/33/gronberg_magnusson.php
https://www.sciencealert.com/mathematics-reveals-why-human-cannibalism-keeps-reappearing
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[00:00:01] Rod: So all of us humanity-loving, socially aware types are plagued by some common big questions,
[00:00:07] it's
[00:00:07] it's fair to say. Like, is there life after death? Are we alone in the universe? How do we actually, you know, for reals combat climate change and destruction? Then there are more niche questions like, you know, which are best pets, dogs or cats?
[00:00:21] Obviously dogs or like, should I encourage my kids to go to uni in these modern times or learn a trade, you know? These are
[00:00:26] are, these are
[00:00:26] big questions.
[00:00:28] But
[00:00:28] there's one that until now has been really hard to frame in a way that decides whether it's universally good or bad. And the question is: Is there really any kind of solid evidence-based definitive reason why we, as broad human society, should not be cannibals?
[00:00:56] Will: It's time for a little bit of [00:01:00] science.
[00:01:00] Rod: Yes
[00:01:01] Will: I'm Will Grant, an associate professor in science communication at the Australian National University
[00:01:06] Rod: For now. And I'm Rod Lamberts, a 30-year science communication veteran with the mind of a teenage boy.
[00:01:11] boy
[00:01:12] Will: today, as well as should we be cannibals, we're also going to be exploring a little bit of
[00:01:18] bit
[00:01:18] a definitely not I.
[00:01:20] Rod: for a
[00:01:21] change. Um, we're gonna dive into some fun with animals.
[00:01:23] Will: I've also got some more fun in animals for you.
[00:01:26] Rod: I have a
[00:01:27] a
[00:01:27] longevity hack that's 100% guaranteed to
[00:01:30] work
[00:01:31] So
[00:01:31] yeah, this is the question.
[00:01:32] Some researchers from the University of
[00:01:35] Wroclaw, I'll
[00:01:36] say, in Poland, and Charles University in Czechia, they wanted to answer the question I just posed.
[00:01:41] Will: D- is there any reason we shouldn't be cannibals?
[00:01:44] Rod: Well, look, I, I paraphrased it a little.
[00:01:46] Will: So-
[00:01:47] Rod: But it's different. Here's their-
[00:01:48] Will: Oh, they did the scholarly version
[00:01:49] Rod: "Why does Homo sapiens keep turning to cannibalism but never stick with it?"
[00:01:52] but never stick with
[00:01:53] Will: Oh, we, we give it a dabble, but why do we dabble but not- Yeah ... not commit?
[00:01:57] Rod: Like what? Why are we not good enough
[00:01:58] ourselves?[00:02:00]
[00:02:00] Will: for ourselves?
[00:02:02] Rod: It's
[00:02:02] a good question.
[00:02:03] Do you know?
[00:02:04] Will: Do I know? okay, so, so just to pause here there are many cultural taboos about this.
[00:02:09] Well, actually, I, I'm gonna guess it's that you shouldn't eat, carnivores generally.
[00:02:13] But for different reasons.
[00:02:14] Rod: the question really comes down to the beginning with how do you even frame your thinking about how you say good or bad, do it or don't?
[00:02:20] Will: mo-moral relativism, like-
[00:02:21] Rod: Well, yeah, ethics comes in or your morals. Visceral grossness, like eating people, a lot of people have a kind of-
[00:02:27] Will: Yeah, but only because we've been told.
[00:02:28] Like here's three lamb chop-ish things. , Which one will you eat?
[00:02:32] Rod: One is from a baby .
[00:02:35] I feel like if you didn't tell people this was a person, people would probably eat it fine.
[00:02:40] well, Yeah, so visceral grossness, yes, may be purely cultural.
[00:02:43] But these researchers,
[00:02:44] thinking
[00:02:44] about all these frames, they said let's, let's take the stress out of it, and they did what any rational human would.
[00:02:48] So they
[00:02:49] just did the maths. So they
[00:02:50] built models of what happens when groups do the human as food thing.
[00:02:54] Will: Yep.
[00:02:54] Rod: And they ran a cost-benefit
[00:02:55] analysis of your anthropophagiesss.
[00:02:57] Will: your anthropologists often use the term [00:03:00] anthropophagy to mean eating people, 'cause cannibalism is, is- People eating people ... people eating people. Yeah, not lions eating people.
[00:03:05] Rod: So
[00:03:06] they do say, first on,
[00:03:07] If we go to
[00:03:07] if you go to the benefits, there's actually a very limited scenario where cannibalism really makes some sense, if the cannibalized humans are already dead, so you're not expending energy to hunt-
[00:03:16] Will: Oh, expending energy to hunt
[00:03:18] Rod: is
[00:03:18] This is why-
[00:03:18] man.
[00:03:19] Will: Okay.
[00:03:19] Rod: This is
[00:03:20] Will: Okay ...
[00:03:21] Rod: it's available.
[00:03:21] Will: Yeah.
[00:03:22] Rod: Like When the meat can be cooked safely, that is important.
[00:03:25] So
[00:03:25] uh,
[00:03:25] yeah, particularly a condition where you don't consume people
[00:03:28] who
[00:03:28] who themselves were eating people.
[00:03:30] Will: Yeah, okay. Okay. That's a better choice. So if you've got two people to eat-
[00:03:33] Rod: Don't eat the cannibal.
[00:03:34] Will: Don't eat the cannibal.
[00:03:35] Don't get into the human centipede of cannibals.
[00:03:38] Rod: Yeah. Don't eat the people who eat the people.
[00:03:39] That's just
[00:03:40] Will: sensible. And also for that reason, they, they, they would think, "The research says I should eat fresh, not cannibal."
[00:03:45] Rod: Yeah. 100%.
[00:03:46] Will: What, what is, what is... Yeah, what is a non-cannibal?
[00:03:48] non-cannibal?
[00:03:49] Rod: P-
[00:03:49] The normal person.
[00:03:50] Will: Oh, okay.
[00:03:50] Rod: So they conclude, these are these researchers, "Our model," they modeled some stuff, "clearly demonstrates that regular cannibalism is
[00:03:56] is
[00:03:56] unsustainable for human populations in the long run." Not [00:04:00] for the reasons you're thinking, you just run out of people.
[00:04:01] Will: Well, no, obviously it is. Like, if, if the only thing people are eating is people-
[00:04:05] Rod: Yeah
[00:04:06] Will: like- You
[00:04:07] Rod: need a vegetable.
[00:04:07] Will: Yes, you need vegetable. You need another energy input to come into the system.
[00:04:11] Rod: So
[00:04:11] the main reason though that becomes unsustainable is disease transmission-
[00:04:15] Will: Yeah
[00:04:16] Rod: according to their modeling in particular. So that's where their last point, their super important don't eat
[00:04:20] cannibals.
[00:04:20] Don't eat people who eat people.
[00:04:22] Will: Yeah. Can you, can you tell, like in advance? Yeah,
[00:04:24] Rod: yeah, yeah. Like- They've got a, they've got an attitude. They've
[00:04:27] Will: got an air about
[00:04:27] Rod: So this is basically pathogens circulate within the same species.
[00:04:31] Like when you eat the meat of other creatures like, you know, badgers, corgis, whatever- Okay ... you're less likely to get these horrible infections. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I said, your prion disease and so forth. So when someone eats the flesh of someone else who is a cannibal, pathogens likelihood of spreading grows.
[00:04:44] And they talk about the cannibal chain or
[00:04:46] buildup of cannibal
[00:04:47] the building cannibal chains. The chains. And the image I
[00:04:49] saw in
[00:04:50] saw in this article basically it's these Russian nesting dolls. I'm like, "Oh, that's adorable."
[00:04:55] Will: Yeah.
[00:04:55] Rod: Okay. What a way to describe horrible diseases and, repeat cannibalism. So basically you've got your [00:05:00] primary consumer, that's your first time cannibal-
[00:05:01] cannibal,
[00:05:01] Yep
[00:05:02] like you and me. Well, definitely you.
[00:05:03] Will: Yeah.
[00:05:04] Rod: you can get some immediate nutritional benefits.
[00:05:06] Will: Yeah, sure.
[00:05:07] Rod: Like, you know, you're eating
[00:05:08] immediate.
[00:05:08] Secondary
[00:05:09] consumer, your eater of the first cannibal.
[00:05:11] Will: Yes.
[00:05:12] Rod: Some nutritional benefits, but also your
[00:05:14] pathogen-
[00:05:15] Will: disease-y benefits ...
[00:05:16] Rod: start to creep up.
[00:05:17] While your tertiary
[00:05:18] the cannibal who ate the cannibal who ate the cannibal Yes.
[00:05:20] Will: on cannibal.
[00:05:21] Tertiary consumers.
[00:05:22] Rod: I know. This is a quote, "Pathogen accumulation," I'm paraphrasing, "gets pretty large and amplifies." So basically the epidemiological cost of spreading incurable diseases quickly outweigh any cannibal- Yeah,
[00:05:34] Will: yeah, yeah ... benefits. So eventually you're, you're just eating all prions. Pretty much.
[00:05:38] Like it's just, it's just a person made of prions.
[00:05:40] Rod: Yeah, the
[00:05:40] The moment you eat mad cow. So basically they, they say of course cultural taboos are an effective shield from falling into this evolutionary trap. And they talk about, this is the classic example, always comes up from Papua New Guinea, the Fore people and kuru- Yes.
[00:05:53] Yeah ... which is a prion disease
[00:05:54] like
[00:05:55] like
[00:05:55] you know, your, your, your
[00:05:56] mad cow, you know- Mm-hmm ... your bovine
[00:05:57] Will: spec- Spongiform encephalopathy
[00:05:59] Rod: encephalitis,[00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Encephal
[00:06:00] It's spread by misfolded proteins that cooking won't banish.
[00:06:04] Will: Yeah, no, it can't. It can't. They're still in
[00:06:06] Rod: there. They are. And it's a shitty, fatal, horrible brain disease.
[00:06:08] It makes you shake and lose your mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:06:10] But
[00:06:10] also it's known as laughing sickness 'cause part of the way of the-
[00:06:13] the
[00:06:14] things is people burst out in uncontrollable fits of laughter. So there's an upside. Anyway, once the Fore stopped eating
[00:06:19] bits
[00:06:19] of their deceased relatives as part of funeral rites, the disease went away.
[00:06:23] Will: Okay.
[00:06:24] Rod: So yeah, they're eating people who ate people. They weren't being monsters. They were actually doing it- Oh ... out of respect for the dead. No, of course. Keep the ancestor alive, but you eat bits of a brain that's got a badly folded, protein.
[00:06:32] Will: Yeah, of course.
[00:06:33] Rod: you
[00:06:33] You build more proteins.
[00:06:34] Will: Could you eat different bits of a human and you're safe?
[00:06:36] Like-
[00:06:36] Rod: No.
[00:06:37] Will: Oh, so it's everywhere? Well,
[00:06:38] Rod: your toenails, yeah.
[00:06:39] Will: Well, I was gonna go teeth. Like just chomp down on some t-
[00:06:41] Rod: Fuck me, how delicious.
[00:06:42] Will: Like a mouthful of teeth.
[00:06:43] Rod: Nuts and cashews, teeth.
[00:06:45] teeth?
[00:06:46] It's horrifying.
[00:06:49] Will: Mind you, I do think it would be fun to have a mouthful of extra teeth in your mouth, and you can pretend you've been punched and you're like spitting out teeth for like 10
[00:06:57] and
[00:06:57] minutes.
[00:06:58] Rod: Put this handful of teeth in your mouth.
[00:06:59] mouth.[00:07:00]
[00:07:00] Challenge one.
[00:07:03] Will: How many other people's teeth can you fit in your mouth?
[00:07:06] Rod: So anyway, they basically say cannibalism isn't around because any society that was regularly eating themselves probably wiped themselves
[00:07:13] out.
[00:07:13] Will: Yeah.
[00:07:13] Rod: That's their contention. They say of course other prohibitions can also be true, but this is probably the big limiter.
[00:07:19] And
[00:07:19] like all good sciences, they say there are some limitations to our model.
[00:07:22] model. Like
[00:07:23] certain cultures may have decided to practice cannibalism as a way of, you know, being tough guys, terrorizing neighbors,
[00:07:27] terrorizing neighbors, asserting
[00:07:28] status, breaking the taboo freaks people out. So you're not getting into a cannibal chain there, you're just having a bit of a snack.
[00:07:34] Will: Just doing it for,
[00:07:34] for
[00:07:35] demonstration purposes.
[00:07:36] Yeah,
[00:07:36] Rod: like you're chewing on someone's forearm and go, "You really wanna have a fight?"
[00:07:38] Will: No, no, no. Totally. I, I can totally imagine that. It's like, yeah, wearing the ears and the scalps around your neck and stuff like that.
[00:07:44] Rod: We've all done that though. I
[00:07:45] Will: mean,
[00:07:45] Rod: we're, we're all teenagers once. So basically they say, "Listen," in, in their, about their method,
[00:07:49] if
[00:07:49] "If we formalize these social payoffs, it would require a different modeling framework, potentially incorporating signaling theory or intergroup competition, and it lies beyond the scope of the [00:08:00] present study."
[00:08:01] Sure. Their conclusion, "Exploring how such individual level benefits interact with the population level costs identified here represents a promising direction for future research." So my question is, what fucking research
[00:08:14] are you
[00:08:14] are you doing
[00:08:15] after this? Like
[00:08:16] this? Like what? We wanna do more on
[00:08:20] why
[00:08:20] we don't keep on eating
[00:08:22] people
[00:08:22] and stuff.
[00:08:23] like that.
[00:08:23] I understand all science articles are supposed to end that way,
[00:08:26] this time I'm
[00:08:27] but this time I'm gonna give you a pass.
[00:08:28] Will: Yeah, you're done. You're done. It's okay.
[00:08:29] Rod: We're done. Don't cannibal.
[00:08:31] Will: Don't cannibal.
[00:08:34] Well, I've got an ethical dilemma for you as well then. Okay.
[00:08:38] Rod: I'm really
[00:08:39] at
[00:08:39] good at these.
[00:08:39] Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. well, it's probably not one that you do very much, but it's one that I think is triggering a lot of people at the moment. They're like,
[00:08:45] Rod: Oh
[00:08:46] Will: "Uh, uh, uh, something seems wrong here." I just wanted to go back before I tell the story.
[00:08:49] You know how The Onion,
[00:08:50] Yes. Yeah ... uh,
[00:08:51] news website. Yeah. Always great headlines, great story. Yeah. It's alwa- it's always good fun. But there's always a couple that stick in, in your mind. Like I can go back decades [00:09:00] because it, it hits something just right.
[00:09:01] Yeah.
[00:09:01] Rod: Yeah.
[00:09:02] Will: So this is The Onion. Back in like 2007 or something like that. Oh, that's nice.
[00:09:05] Rod: before times.
[00:09:06] Will: Google announces plan to destroy all information it can't index.
[00:09:10] And so there, there's this nice little article about Eric Schmidt saying, " we've scanned in all the books, we've indexed everything, and now our next mission is to destroy the things that we can't- Everything else we can't ... to systematize things." So, well-
[00:09:21] Rod: Well, they just, that's organized and it's neat.
[00:09:22] Will: It's just a good idea. I mean, that's all going into the mix. Starting in early 2024, and the documents here came through, court records that, have been published in 404 Media
[00:09:30] aI labs, Anthropic is the, the dominant one here, but it seems there's a bunch of others that are doing the same thing
[00:09:37] Rod: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:38] Will: have started, what they're calling a new arms race to buy up millions of rare books.
[00:09:45] Rod: Oh, no. Come on,
[00:09:46] is not starting well.
[00:09:47] Will: They're buying them up because rare books, old books-
[00:09:50] Rod: For the good of humanity ...
[00:09:51] Will: well, well, they know they're published before
[00:09:54] AI
[00:09:55] 2022, and so therefore, they are guaranteed free of AI slop.
[00:09:58] gen- to, to
[00:09:58] So they can [00:10:00] use these books that were published before AI slop- To
[00:10:02] Rod: generate AI slop ... to
[00:10:03] Will: ge- to, to generate AI slop. Oh. So anyway, they've got, you know, these books going back,
[00:10:08] to the 1600s,
[00:10:09] going back to the 1600s, the 1700s, the 1800s, all sorts of stuff like that. Heaps and heaps. The
[00:10:11] Rod: Necronomicons,
[00:10:12] Will: your
[00:10:12] Rod: Doomsday books.
[00:10:13] Will: Yeah, your, Look, they've also gone for a whole bunch of the, the rare and the, very, very niche. This is like, tree logger's manuals from 1870 or something.
[00:10:23] Speaker 2: Also wants how to knit
[00:10:24] Rod: Toenail
[00:10:25] Will: 星 socks. Indeed, indeed.
[00:10:26] Yeah. You know, they're rare for a reason. They are not best-selling books. Yeah. But they've been buying them up in, in just gargantuan scales. Yeah. I've got a picture I'm just gonna show you here. And this is labeled Warehouse
[00:10:38] E2.
[00:10:38] E2, and whenever you're labeling your warehouses- No, no, no ... not just in single letters-
[00:10:42] As far as you can see,
[00:10:44] Rod: So to infinity
[00:10:45] but- That is a colossally
[00:10:47] large looking warehouse of
[00:10:49] Will: large
[00:10:49] A colossal... It, it
[00:10:50] warehouse ... a colossal... It, it looks like a, a sort of library with no systematization.
[00:10:53] here's the cool thing where the ethical dilemma is. You know, books are books are books, and Google did a big project, 20 years ago to, get the, [00:11:00] these sorts of books, scan them in. You know, they got to, I don't know what it is, 5 to 10% of all books ever published, and that's really cool.
[00:11:06] buildings over there. But look, to make it easy on themselves, and weirdly, Elon Musk, who is doing a similar thing, has taken the good policy, which is like- Come on
[00:11:14] first time ever. No. Anth- It's not for long ... Anthropic have got a special, a special machine where what you do is you basically, slice the book open with a hydraulic slice, you slice off the spine.
[00:11:26] Rod: Seriously,
[00:11:27] Seriously, I was about to joke and say, "Yeah, we, we capture all the information, but
[00:11:30] it gets destroyed in the
[00:11:31] Will: it gets destroyed" It gets destroyed.
[00:11:33] It gets- I'm telling you ... it literally... So they, they slice- That was
[00:11:35] Rod: supposed to be my half
[00:11:36] ha
[00:11:37] Will: slice off the spine, scan it all in, and then pulp all the pages of these rare books. Now,
[00:11:42] Anthropic
[00:11:43] did not want any of this to come to light.
[00:11:45] Speaker 2: Why not?
[00:11:48] Will: Fucking
[00:11:49] Rod: sensitive.
[00:11:50] Will: Also,
[00:11:51] you know who didn't really want this to come to light? There are two organizations. The ISDN it's an organization that basically gives a number to every book.
[00:11:58] Old books don't have them, [00:12:00] before they existed,
[00:12:00] Rod: No.
[00:12:01] Will: but they have a catalog of, of all of the books. Anthropic have said, "Can you give us like
[00:12:06] a,
[00:12:07] list of all of the books?" No. And, and, and they're like- Then we'll destroy them ... and and they're like, "Okay, here it is. You pay us." And then booksellers.
[00:12:15] Now, here's, here's the next group of people who are like-
[00:12:17] Hmm ... this is,
[00:12:18] is... I've mixed emotions, 'cause you imagine a rare and antique bookseller I mean, they're not in the business for the money. I, I don't know what it's like being a rare and antique bookseller
[00:12:27] Rod: yeah, they are. They can be-- You can be in the, in it for the money and also just love the smell.
[00:12:30] Will: You could be in it for the money and not make money I'm just guessing. Rare and antique booksellers are not making a lot of sales. But right now-
[00:12:38] Rod: But when they
[00:12:38] Will: do ... well, right now they are selling. There's one interview, that was in 404, going from selling 20 books per week to literally hundreds.
[00:12:46] And all sorts of books that have just been sitting on their shelves for forever. Like no one is interested in Log Cutter's Guide number 12 from 18 whatever. Yeah.
[00:12:55] Rod: Yep. And- The Book of
[00:12:56] Will: Wood tone and- And so they're like, "Oh, I'm making bacon right now." And so [00:13:00] they're being quiet about it as well because they are just being pulped all over the place.
[00:13:04] Rod: I know this is gonna sound naive. Can't they employ a human to just photocopy them?
[00:13:07] No.
[00:13:07] Will: No. Why would you do that?
[00:13:08] Rod: When you could just mesh them.
[00:13:10] them.
[00:13:10] Will: No. Well, I mean, they're in an arms race. like this is their thing that-
[00:13:13] Rod: competition
[00:13:14] Will: a tissue guard ... they, they are like, "We've gotta, harvest as much of this knowledge as possible." And there does seem to be a bit of an effect here.
[00:13:21] Rod: Uh.
[00:13:21] Will: I've only ever heard it described by law students, but maybe some of the other very competitive degrees do this.
[00:13:26] But in older times, back when, uh, back when I did my undergrad, there were the law students that would go, essay is set by the, the lecturer,
[00:13:33] Rod: Yep.
[00:13:33] Will: And
[00:13:34] it's like you will need to look, consult case report number whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And,
[00:13:37] yep.
[00:13:38] and they're like, "All right. Get to the library first, read that, photocopy that, and then hide the book."
[00:13:42] And then everyone else is like, "Ah, I can't do the assignment because I can't find case report number-"
[00:13:48] Rod: you, yeah.
[00:13:49] Will: I have no idea, yeah. And so there, there may be an incentive in this particular dynamic for, Anthropic or the, well, any of these AI labs to go, "Well, even better if it's a unique [00:14:00] source
[00:14:00] Rod: Fucking assholes.
[00:14:01] Will: one else can get it."
[00:14:02] No, no, no. "No one else can get it. We, we destroy the knowledge." And it's like they bought the book, so it's their right, but wow, what a crime against the world.
[00:14:12] Rod: No, no, it's fine. And,
[00:14:13] And,
[00:14:13] um, look, at least they could be
[00:14:14] could do
[00:14:14] the civilized thing. If they're cold, they could burn them.
[00:14:17] 'Cause at least you, you can get to warm your hands.
[00:14:19] Will: Well, at least we get something that will- Mother- ... something that will help us cheat on our homework ...
[00:14:24] Rod: sorry.
[00:14:24] but
[00:14:25] Fuck you.
[00:14:25] Like,
[00:14:26] Will: it- Fuck you ... it's so offense, and, and, and-
[00:14:28] Rod: How can you be that terrible? ...
[00:14:30] Will: internal memo from Anthropic, Anthropic described the project as our, our effort to s- disruptively scan, and that means their process- Oh, it's disruptive
[00:14:38] disruptively scan all the world's books in an internal memo which noted, "We do not want it to be known that we are pursuing this project." Like, no fucking doubt, you monsters. You monsters.
[00:14:47] Rod: Calling it disruptive too. Oh,
[00:14:49] was I a naughty
[00:14:51] that your word, boy? I just- Fuck you.
[00:14:54] No
[00:14:54] offense though, if you're listening, we've
[00:14:59] Okay, this [00:15:00] story starts with me reading about a recent research project that suggested mescaline , chemical you find in cactuses.
[00:15:07] It causes you to, you know, trip balls, alters how the
[00:15:09] how
[00:15:09] brain responds to sensory information, et cetera.
[00:15:12] Will: I believe Aldous Huxley's Doors of Perception, for whom the doors are named, was mescaline.
[00:15:17] Rod: So they say, look, it, it can affect things like how people perceive colors, shapes, time, surroundings, and even themselves.
[00:15:23] themselves. Yeah.
[00:15:24] Will: I, yeah.
[00:15:25] Rod: Yeah. it goes on though, this research, to talk about what they think is a new role for the cerebellum.
[00:15:30] So that's the little kind of weird, it's like a, looks like a mini brain at the base of your brain. Traditionally associated with coordinating movement, balance, you know, your fine motor skills, et cetera.
[00:15:38] Will: Yep.
[00:15:39] Rod: But
[00:15:39] there's growing evidence suggesting it also could be involved in attention, emotion, memory, processing of sensory information, et cetera.
[00:15:44] Will: Okay.
[00:15:45] Rod: Fucking cool. Great. So I keep on reading. The article goes on to describe how they used rats, no surprise.
[00:15:50] So the animal's brain activity was tracked while they were awake using functional magnetic resonance imaging, fMRI.
[00:15:56] fMRI.
[00:15:57] The rats had been gradually made accustomed to the [00:16:00] scanner beforehand, allowing the scans
[00:16:01] to be
[00:16:02] to be conducted without anesthesia- ... 'cause that
[00:16:02] anesthesia that
[00:16:04] can affect brain
[00:16:05] Will: activity. So hang on, pause. So the rat in an...
[00:16:08] a,
[00:16:08] Is it a, is it a- A
[00:16:08] Rod: rat in an MRI ...
[00:16:09] Will: is it a rat-sized MRI?
[00:16:12] Rod: No, it's an MRI.
[00:16:12] Will: It's a human-sized MRI.
[00:16:14] Rod: With rats in it.
[00:16:14] Will: I, I-
[00:16:15] Rod: Who are tripping balls ...
[00:16:16] Will: I kind of imagine the MRIs
[00:16:17] are kind of
[00:16:18] working hard, and there's not a lot of time to just squeeze a rat in there as well. Unless-
[00:16:23] Rod: I mean, they do research MRIs
[00:16:25] That's another story. So the scans show the mescaline reduced activity within parts of the cerebellum, but strengthened communication between the cerebellum and other brain regions.
[00:16:33] Will: Okay. Yep.
[00:16:33] Rod: Which
[00:16:33] is cool. But honestly, and you kind of touched on it, it's burying the lead because the cerebellum and stuff is great, but
[00:16:40] I wanna know how the
[00:16:40] I wanna know how the fuck are you keeping a awake
[00:16:42] in
[00:16:42] an MRI?
[00:16:43] an
[00:16:43] Famously,
[00:16:44] if you've ever had one, you've gotta be really damn still in an MRI. So yeah-
[00:16:48] Will: Is this just with sticky tape?
[00:16:49] Is this just a sticky tape scenario?
[00:16:51] tape
[00:16:51] Like Now a
[00:16:52] Rod: word from our sponsors, Scotch
[00:16:54] Will: tape. Like, like you've gaffer taped the rat to a plank and you squ- A rat in an MRI,
[00:16:58] Rod: MRI. Get it
[00:16:59] tripping balls, [00:17:00] without tape.
[00:17:01] Will: And, and, you know, well, not saying that these researchers followed the same protocol, but more and more animal ethics protocols are asking for consent, for the animals.
[00:17:08] So they have to-
[00:17:09] Rod: Ooze a little
[00:17:10] ratty?
[00:17:10] Will: willingly, willingly get on the mescaline and go in the MRI.
[00:17:14] Rod: because of this blowing my mind, I turn to the 2022 journal classic, "Applications in Awake Animal Magnetic Resonance Imaging," 'cause I was like, I wanna know more about how do you get awake animals-
[00:17:25] Will: Yeah ...
[00:17:26] Rod: into MRIs. So these people in this article who are, let's be clear, are pro-awake animals in MRI.
[00:17:32] Will: Yeah, sure. "
[00:17:33] Rod: Animal imaging without anesthesia was originally met with some resistance," they say.
[00:17:37] Will: Yeah.
[00:17:38] Rod: Of course.
[00:17:38] And
[00:17:39] today there are many publications proposing better
[00:17:41] anesthetics
[00:17:42] for functional
[00:17:43] MRI
[00:17:44] Will: but sure. If you, if you wanna see how they're thinking, like-
[00:17:47] Rod: Yeah ...
[00:17:47] Will: it's not gonna work well if they're put into a sleep state, whatever.
[00:17:50] Rod: Ex- exactly this. And so I've got the... But I love the language here.
[00:17:53] "The contrarians argue"-
[00:17:54] that
[00:17:54] the reduction in stress and motion artifact," so
[00:17:57] movement,
[00:17:58] "using anesthesia and [00:18:00] sedatives is better
[00:18:01] than
[00:18:01] the confound of stress when interpreting brain function." So it's better to drug them than put them in there and have them freaking out.
[00:18:08] Will: Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:09] Oh, it doesn't- That's what
[00:18:09] Rod: they argue.
[00:18:09] Will: Yeah.
[00:18:10] Rod: They say, "The hesitancy to adopt awake imaging is also confounded in the need for specialized technology, additional costs,
[00:18:17] time.
[00:18:17] Will: tape.
[00:18:18] Rod: Yeah,
[00:18:18] exactly. Nothing more. Solved it. Hope they're listening.
[00:18:22] Also,
[00:18:22] you know, some institutions, they... I love
[00:18:25] put
[00:18:25] they put this, "And for some institutions, ethical issues around the care and treatment of animals."
[00:18:29] Will: Wow. Wow. Wow.
[00:18:32] Rod: I know. They're, they're trying to be clinical, but the language reads
[00:18:35] so dismissively. Yeah,
[00:18:36] Will: are they saying... Well, no. Are they saying other, "We follow them, others don't"? Or are they like- No, they're saying- ... "Other losers follow ethics and we don't"?
[00:18:43] Rod: I agree. I like that version. It's just like, on some of you...
[00:18:46] Yes, yes, yes. It's
[00:18:47] of like, "Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, animals and
[00:18:50] mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Animals and ethics and blah, blah, blah." So they're counting points. Most often studies that are, are done on animals to extrapolate to humans. I mean, there's some veterinary stuff, whatever. Yeah. But mostly we do it, we wanna [00:19:00] find out about us without doing it to us.
[00:19:02] And human brain function, as they say, is never studied under general anesthesia unless you're trying to find out effects of anesthesia.
[00:19:08] Will: General anesthesia.
[00:19:09] Rod: Yeah. Yeah. I, I imagine that. So, you know, you might look... If you want to talk about how antipsychotics work, a- a- anskio- analgesics,
[00:19:16] psychostimulants,
[00:19:17] drugs of abuse, et cetera, affecting brain function cannot be, like, fucked with with anesthesia.
[00:19:23] You can't mess with it with anesthesia, then put them on the drugs. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause you get confound.
[00:19:28] Will: Totally.
[00:19:29] Rod: Also, central nervous system acting drugs affect cognition,
[00:19:32] emotion,
[00:19:33] perceptions of the external and internal milieu and the sensations. So it, it's no good. So drugging animals is not gonna give us the best-
[00:19:41] Will: Yeah.
[00:19:42] No, we gotta- ... results ... we gotta have some sort of wake animal situation.
[00:19:45] Rod: Yes, you do. And look, I'm on team yes, 'cause I think it's just fascinating. And also I wanna find out about the brain without having to hurt mine.
[00:19:51] Will: Yeah.
[00:19:52] Rod: I'm
[00:19:52] selfless that way.
[00:19:53] Will: So what's their methods? What are they doing here?
[00:19:55] Rod: That's what we're gonna get to.
[00:19:55] So how do you get animals to chill in an MRI? So sometimes drugs are part of the process leading up [00:20:00] to it So you might put some,
[00:20:01] uh,
[00:20:01] anesthesia into them as you get them used to the room, the sounds, the smell ,
[00:20:05] Will: so you're calming them down a bit. Yeah.
[00:20:06] Rod: start
[00:20:06] Okay, yeah You start by calming them down,
[00:20:07] and
[00:20:08] then you kind of
[00:20:08] get them to acclimatize, as it were.
[00:20:10] There are physical restraining systems, uh, and I love the phrase, many of which are non-invasive.
[00:20:14] So
[00:20:15] Some are actually surgically applied. They're called restraining.
[00:20:18] Will: Or paralytics or something like that, so. No,
[00:20:19] Rod: no, no, no. Like we're talking physical objects- Yeah,
[00:20:22] Will: I know. No, I'm saying,
[00:20:22] Rod: yeah
[00:20:22] nailed onto the head.
[00:20:24] Some use, uh, surgical methods and implants-
[00:20:26] to
[00:20:26] to immobilize the noggin. But both still need to acclimatize patients to
[00:20:30] keep
[00:20:30] them calm. In general, animals are lightly anesthetized, secured in a restraining system, allowed to recover in the virtual environment
[00:20:38] that's
[00:20:38] meant to mimic the scanning environment.
[00:20:40] So you knock them out, build the system, and slowly bring them back again and let them get used to the idea.
[00:20:46] Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:20:46] Rod: You know, the background noises of the-
[00:20:47] Will: Yeah, you chill them out ... MRI. Play some nice Enya.
[00:20:49] Rod: Exactly.
[00:20:50] So
[00:20:50] doing it without drugs. We'll start with rats because that's where we began. So one version these guys use themselves, they,
[00:20:56] a- a-
[00:20:57] acclimate, acclimate 90 minutes every [00:21:00] second day for eight days. They get the rats used to the situation, and they assess how they're reacting by looking at changes in their heart rate,
[00:21:06] their
[00:21:06] respiratory rate, the blood levels of stress hormones, corticosterone, physiological and endocrine measures of autonomic arousal, and they find those decrease with
[00:21:17] acclimatization.
[00:21:18] So as you get them more used to it, you notice these measures of arousal biologically- Yeah, they get
[00:21:22] Will: calmer ...
[00:21:23] Rod: they drop down. Although I did find this interesting aside. When rats are imaged awake without being acclimatized and then again
[00:21:30] several
[00:21:30] days after acclimatization, they found no difference in blood flow to the cerebral area.
[00:21:35] So cerebral blood flow
[00:21:37] across
[00:21:37] multiple regions was no different whether they were- Mm ... acclimatized or not, which is kind of weird. Anyway, rats are often surgically implanted with a head post that fits into a cradle.
[00:21:47] Will: A head post. A
[00:21:48] Rod: head post.
[00:21:49] Will: So what are we doing here?
[00:21:50] Rod: It's kind of like bits of metal that's, that, that they prevent rotational motion.
[00:21:54] Will: So they're-
[00:21:55] they're like attaching to their skull? Kind of,
[00:21:58] Rod: Kinda, yeah,
[00:21:58] yeah, locked in place.
[00:21:59] [00:22:00] Then they give them eight to 10 days
[00:22:01] as
[00:22:02] they learn to enter a, and this is the actual word,
[00:22:04] to put them
[00:22:05] to put them into a snuggle sack
[00:22:06] Oh.
[00:22:06] Will: Aww.
[00:22:07] Rod: I know.
[00:22:08] Will: To put them- See,
[00:22:08] Rod: A
[00:22:09] Will: this was much enou- So first we're gonna weld a bolt to your head, and then we'll put you in a snuggle sack
[00:22:14] Rod: which let's be clear, is probably, you know, like a skin rat turned inside out and then wrapped around
[00:22:17] around their
[00:22:18] their bodies to hold them from moving.
[00:22:20] Anyway, they put them in a snuggle sack. They slide their head into the post into a cradle,
[00:22:24] and
[00:22:24] they lie there motionless, but without drugs. So early on they use light anesthesia just to get them used to it, and then slowly but surely
[00:22:32] they
[00:22:32] they get fine. But it's very time-consuming, expensive, et cetera. So that's what they do with rats.
[00:22:36] Other animals, we know, we've talked about it before, dogs trained to chill out in
[00:22:39] MRIs
[00:22:40] over multiple- Yeah,
[00:22:41] Will: they could do it ...
[00:22:41] Rod: experiences. And it's always freaking border collies and stuff 'cause they're super intelligent and keen to please.
[00:22:46] Anyway, dogs can learn.
[00:22:47] Marmoset
[00:22:48] monkeys, you can slowly desensitize them to each step along the way. plus a unique design of a head cradle to eliminate-
[00:22:55] Will: Mm ...
[00:22:56] Rod: movement.
[00:22:57] , To
[00:22:57] eliminate also the need for ear bars, [00:23:00] bite bars. So
[00:23:01] I'm thinking bridles and-
[00:23:02] Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah ...
[00:23:03] Rod: and also to help them, uh, just,
[00:23:04] you know, feel
[00:23:05] you know, feel minimum discomfort.
[00:23:06] Other animals, rabbits, cats, mice, rhesus macaques, and more. All
[00:23:11] have
[00:23:12] of them- Wow ... have been trained to do this.
[00:23:12] And the
[00:23:13] ultimate purpose is to reduce the stress and minimize movement, so you can get the most-
[00:23:17] Will: It's amazing. The amount of work that there are, that, that there are- Mm-hmm ... scientists doing the work.
[00:23:21] Rod: the work-
[00:23:22] Will: The, the, the whole point later is the, the MRI and- Yeah ... understanding the neuroscience. But there is a whole bunch of the researchers here in how do we do it efficiently. Yeah, it's amazing.
[00:23:31] Rod: Hours upon hours in
[00:23:32] buildup to get the build up to get that 20 minutes or that 15
[00:23:34] 15
[00:23:34] minutes. But the weird thing is, it's not true for all animals the way this works.
[00:23:38] There is one animal You can image it without acclimatizing on the first time, no worries. The
[00:23:42] Will: spider.
[00:23:43] Rod: Oh, I'm gonna
[00:23:44] get to you guys, but this, this, this efforts to, uh, acclimate only
[00:23:48] only exacerbate
[00:23:49] the stress.
[00:23:50] Like,
[00:23:51] Will: Like, no, man. That's... Okay. Okay.
[00:23:54] Rod: And multiple measures of stress, not just 'cause they wiggle around,
[00:23:57] or they
[00:23:57] what they call a motion artifact.
[00:23:58] [00:24:00] Vocalization, so probably shrieking. Recording heart rate, respiratory sinus arrhythmia. So not a spider.
[00:24:04] Will: Okay. So it's gotta be, it's gotta be an animal that's, like, freaked out by tunnels and tubes. So rabbits are like, "No, this is cool." I get it. Love a tube. No, this is great.
[00:24:10] I'm, I'm doing... Ants, you know, they're fine. Like, whatever. Okay, so I'm guessing it's an outdoor species.
[00:24:15] It's a, it's a king of the mountain sort of species
[00:24:17] Or an eagle. Like, it's like it's like, "No, man, I don't
[00:24:21] I don't
[00:24:22] into tubes." Like, "That's for you lesser beasts."
[00:24:25] Fool me
[00:24:25] Rod: once, me
[00:24:27] Will: I, I Fool me once, I'll be calm. But the second time- Nah ... I'll scream. There's no way an eagle's getting into a, into an MRI
[00:24:33] Rod: and
[00:24:33] Like never twice. And, and I agree, like with there should be a shout-out to the people who do all the pre-work,
[00:24:36] 'cause the amount
[00:24:37] 'cause the amount of hours
[00:24:38] for that
[00:24:38] for that short burst of
[00:24:39] MRI,
[00:24:40] Imaging,
[00:24:41] holy
[00:24:41] shit the amount of work to do that.
[00:24:42] Will: It's beautiful.
[00:24:43] Rod: It- Also, I love that it all started with finding out, you know,
[00:24:45] the
[00:24:46] nature of tripping balls.
[00:24:47] on eska.
[00:24:48] Anyway, there
[00:24:49] Will: you go. Love it
[00:24:50] One animal that I bet has never been into an MRI,
[00:24:54] Rod: Elephant ...
[00:24:54] Will: uh, that's possible. I don't know. But I was gonna go a blue whale.
[00:24:57] In 1865, a young [00:25:00] blue whale beached on the rocks of Askim Bay, not far from the city of Gothenburg in Sweden. A blue whale beached. A blue, a blue whale beached. A blue whale.
[00:25:08] Well, you know, it's the big one.
[00:25:09] Biggest animal ever.
[00:25:10] Now, a lot of this comes from, uh, a great post on Atlas Obscura, and I got this from a Blue Sky post.
[00:25:14] Rod: So 100%
[00:25:16] credible Yeah,
[00:25:16] Will: no, yeah, it's, that's
[00:25:17] crew. Yeah, no, yeah, that's legit.
[00:25:17] Rod: Mm.
[00:25:18] Will: in those heady days, beached whales were not generally rescued.
[00:25:22] No,
[00:25:23] Rod: cooked and
[00:25:24] Will: eaten. Indeed. That's what they were. Indeed.
[00:25:25] It Was a national emergency of Germany, and Denmark was like, "You losers, what are you doing?"
[00:25:30] doing?"
[00:25:31] they, they tried to save a whale, did not save the whale.
[00:25:34] Speaker 2: They, they,
[00:25:34] Rod: I feel like they never get saved. Yeah. Anyway, uh, in
[00:25:35] get saved.
[00:25:36] Will: Yeah. Anyway,
[00:25:37] in those days, uh,
[00:25:38] whales were slaughtered. Such was the fate.
[00:25:40] Rod: Yep.
[00:25:41] Will: The fisherman who discovered the, the poor whale started where everyone would start, and as, as-
[00:25:47] Rod: Start cutting from the
[00:25:48] Will: bottom? Uh, no. They were like, "No, first you go for the eyes, poke the eyes out, so they won't be able to see us."
[00:25:53] Rod: what's it gonna do? Recognize
[00:25:56] what's it gonna do? Recognize you in a lineup afterwards.
[00:25:57] Will: It's probably still alive at this point.
[00:25:59] Rod: Yeah, but it's [00:26:00] on the beach. It can't really respond a lot.
[00:26:01] Will: Yeah, I know, but they're, they're like, "I..."
[00:26:04] I feel, I feel
[00:26:04] I feel, I, I would feel better. I would
[00:26:05] Rod: feel bad if it could see me, so
[00:26:06] so I'm
[00:26:06] I'm gonna blind it brutally.
[00:26:08] Will: Yeah. Indeed.
[00:26:09] Rod: humane
[00:26:10] The humane approach. Thanks,
[00:26:10] Will: 19th century fishermen. Thanks, your people, the Vikings. Okay. Over the next two days, the creature was methodically axed, speared, and shot-
[00:26:17] Rod: And eventually died ...
[00:26:18] Will: until it finally died in a sea of its own blood.
[00:26:20] Rod: I was kidding. Seriously
[00:26:21] fuck me, animals.
[00:26:23] Will: I, I'm just looking at our vegan, producer.
[00:26:26] Rod: I, I think he, he looks like he's drooling
[00:26:29] Will: I
[00:26:29] Okay. the next day, August Wilhelm
[00:26:33] taxidermist and curator of the Gothenburg Museum, showed up at the scene and purchased the beast from its killers for the museum collection.
[00:26:40] Rod: Well,
[00:26:40] left of the
[00:26:40] Will: beast.
[00:26:42] Rod: Uh. Taxidermying a whale.
[00:26:45] Will: whale Well indeed, you have guessed the story
[00:26:49] described-
[00:26:50] Rod: I'm
[00:26:51] I'm impressed when someone does a rabbit,
[00:26:52] Will: I'm like probably took
[00:26:54] Rod: some work
[00:26:54] Will: I am not, I am not a huge taxidermy person but-
[00:26:58] Rod: have one or
[00:26:58] That's why you never
[00:26:59] Will: wanna do really [00:27:00] But when you're like, "No, I'm gonna do a blue whale," like you're like this-
[00:27:03] Rod: No more worlds to conquer
[00:27:04] Will: I'm going for the big dog. Yeah, no more worlds to co- This is, this is Oppenheimer.
[00:27:08] I'm doing Oppenheimer of the 19th century Wow
[00:27:11] Rod: That's wild.
[00:27:12] Will: Not content to hack the creature apart to transport just m- No ... just major pieces to the museum, Malm decided that he had to have the whole whale whole and intact "
[00:27:21] Rod: I need 1,000 wagons"
[00:27:23] Will: Three steamboats and two coal barges
[00:27:25] Rod: steamboats.
[00:27:27] Will: To tow the whale back to Gothenburg, uh, sure.
[00:27:30] I love this bit. Greeted by a crowd of excited on- onlookers- Sure ... Malm took the opportunity to climb up on the head of the, head of the whale and deliver a lecture on whales, which I am like, "That is so fucking cool" Thanks
[00:27:41] Speaker 2: for killing the moment I
[00:27:42] Will: know. I'm like science communication out there in public on the head of a whale.
[00:27:46] Here is a whale
[00:27:48] Uh, the whale's organs were preserved in barrels in the yard of the museum Sure Its, its skin was treated over a number of weeks. The baleen was hung and salted, and the skeleton was boiled and cleaned The
[00:27:57] Rod: baleen
[00:27:58] is the teeth. It's
[00:27:59] Will: is the teeth It's the [00:28:00] teethy bits.
[00:28:00] They're, they're not teeth, but they're, they're teethy- Teethy They're, they're teeth combs Filter
[00:28:04] Rod: teeth
[00:28:05] Will: Yeah. They're, they're the bits that filter the krill Meanwhile, a great wooden frame was built in rough whale shape and completed with- ... with a hinged jaw
[00:28:14] Rod: Ooh.
[00:28:15] Will: The skin was stretched over the frame, held together by brass tacks, like a leather sofa.
[00:28:19] There are photos out there It's
[00:28:20] Rod: an upholstered whale
[00:28:21] Will: Yeah,
[00:28:21] Yeah, but look, they had to upholster it. It's, it's like upholstery taxidermy
[00:28:25] Rod: There's my Chesterfield whale.
[00:28:26] That's
[00:28:27] That's
[00:28:27] Will: fantastic The hinged jaw was made to be open to allow visitors to descend into the belly of the beast- Oh,
[00:28:34] Rod: yeah
[00:28:35] Will: which
[00:28:35] comfortably outfitted with benches, carpeting, and wall hangings
[00:28:39] The Malm whale spent many years, and here I, I didn't get the, the details of how it did this,
[00:28:44] this,
[00:28:45] traveling around Europe
[00:28:47] Rod: Well, we know that, three steamboats and
[00:28:48] and two coal barges.
[00:28:49] Will: I
[00:28:49] know, it's wild.
[00:28:50] Up back ... I know this was the grand old days of train and, train and steam and, and
[00:28:54] Rod: your grand tours
[00:28:55] Will: but wow, a whale.
[00:28:57] like- Yeah, the grand tours ... but wow, a whale. Like,
[00:28:57] Rod: That's
[00:28:58] Will: before before finally make it [00:29:00] home at the Gothenburg Natural History Museum- Mm
[00:29:02] where it still sits today. Now, originally the
[00:29:05] whale's
[00:29:06] whale's jaw was open all of the time.
[00:29:08] Rod: no,
[00:29:08] that's slutty.
[00:29:09] Will: Well, indeed, because sometime in the 1930s they decided, "No, we have to close the whale's mouth," because a couple was found fucking inside the whale's mouth. And they said- Oh. And the chairman of the museum said-
[00:29:24] "we, we must be content with the fact that it was two citizens of our own city that enjoyed this privilege."
[00:29:30] Rod: good point.
[00:29:30] Will: You can still go and see the Malm whale,
[00:29:33] that's
[00:29:33] Malm whale ... in the Gothenburg, uh, Natural History Museum. Mm.
[00:29:35] Rod: good.
[00:29:36] Will: And if you attend during, election day- the whale's mouth is open only on Swedish election days. Open for voting. Open for vo- Someone did say, "Can you vote inside the whale?" I don't think you can, but there are pictures of people in the old times having dinner parties and things inside the whale. Of course. It's like- Mm. I just love in the 1930s they're, they're like, "So do you wanna go and fuck inside the whale?"
[00:29:55] And it's like- Yes, I do ... yeah, indeed. Indeed. So- I
[00:29:58] Rod: can't believe it took so long
[00:29:58] Will: [00:30:00] for the whale
[00:30:03] There you go.
[00:30:03] Rod: Ah,
[00:30:04] that's great ...
[00:30:05] Will: there you go Well, I'm pretty sure you told me about this before. The cordyceps fungus.
[00:30:12] Rod: it hacks the nervous system of ant victims and turns them into zombies essentially. It makes them climb- Ant
[00:30:17] Will: zombies
[00:30:18] Rod: Yeah, ant zombies, not human zombies.
[00:30:19] Will: Yeah.
[00:30:19] Rod: That'd be, that'd be almost- No,
[00:30:20] Will: if there was a virus that did that, I would be like, "Wow."
[00:30:23] Rod: Well, it turns ants into
[00:30:23] was a virus that did that, I would be
[00:30:23] humans, yeah, that's fantastic. Anyway, it makes these ants, they climb up a plant of some description, they lock their mandibles, their, you know, teeth bits onto the underside of a leaf.
[00:30:31] Will: I think mandisbull. Oh,
[00:30:33] Rod: I think
[00:30:33] that's true. then a stalk grows from their heads, it bursts open, it spreads spores all over the place onto other ants on the forest floor below, and
[00:30:39] they create more of these zombies.
[00:30:42] then they- Yeah ... create more of these zombies. But then, you know, I was reading this as like maybe there are good versions of parasites for
[00:30:45] ants
[00:30:46] too. Maybe
[00:30:46] you know, ones that
[00:30:47] they're, you know, ones that bestow benefits.
[00:30:48] Will: You're really wondering if there are benefits for ants?
[00:30:51] Rod: the ants I'm a,
[00:30:52] I'm a, I'm a, you know-
[00:30:52] Will: You're a-
[00:30:53] Rod: By nature, a curious man.
[00:30:54] Will: Indeed.
[00:30:55] Rod: I've never had sex inside of a whale in Sweden, but,
[00:30:57] you know, I'm a
[00:30:58] you know, I'm a curious man.
[00:30:58] Will: Squad goals.
[00:30:59] Rod: dolls. [00:31:00] Squat dolls.
[00:31:01] So when the larvae of the
[00:31:03] Temnothorax
[00:31:04] nylanderi ant, so an ant- ... they eat woodpecker poop, and they can become infected with a tapeworm, which is the Hymenolepis diminuta.
[00:31:14] Will: Do I need to know the science-y names- 100%
[00:31:15] for the test later?
[00:31:16] Rod: Yeah, there's ants and there's a tapeworm.
[00:31:18] Will: There's ants, woodpeckers, and tapeworm.
[00:31:20] Rod: Yep. And so these ants-
[00:31:22] Will: Yep ...
[00:31:22] Rod: eat woodpecker shit- Okay ... uh, infected with tapeworms.
[00:31:25] Will: Okay. And, technical point here, are ants big enough to have tapeworms?
[00:31:29] Rod: Apparently, yes.
[00:31:30] Will: My imagination of a tapeworm is it is bigger than an ant.
[00:31:33] Rod: Yeah, not, not these, 'cause they s- they fit inside an ant.
[00:31:36] Will: Does an ant have a digestive system?
[00:31:38] Rod: Yeah.
[00:31:39] Will: Really?
[00:31:39] Rod: They have brains.
[00:31:40] Will: My brain can't squeeze out like what-- Like they're basically molecules for me. kinda can't believe that inside ant is- There's a lot ... is stuff. There's a
[00:31:47] Rod: lot inside
[00:31:48] Will: an ant. It's, you can fit a tapeworm in there?
[00:31:49] Rod: A tapeworm larvae.
[00:31:51] Will: Larva. Oh, okay. So baby tapeworm. The larvae tapeworm,
[00:31:53] Rod: yeah.
[00:31:54] Will: All right.
[00:31:54] Rod: tapeworm
[00:31:55] baby babies.
[00:31:55] Will: You're gonna need some big microscopes to be able to see this. This is- Well,
[00:31:58] Rod: w-
[00:31:58] well, yes.
[00:31:59] So the [00:32:00] ants eat the woodpecker shit. They can become infected with this tapeworm.
[00:32:03] Will: Yes.
[00:32:03] Rod: The infected ants change color, so they go from-
[00:32:06] Will: Cool ...
[00:32:06] Rod: they usually they're dark brown
[00:32:08] They go kind of pale yellow
[00:32:10] Will: Oh. Uh, mm
[00:32:11] Rod: Maybe that's
[00:32:12] They go kind of pale yellow Oh, um, mm. Maybe that's
[00:32:12] Will: attractive. I, I don't know.
[00:32:13] Rod: So they get pale yellow instead of dark brown.
[00:32:15] Will: Okay
[00:32:16] Rod: They don't grow quite as big as their counterparts in the nest.
[00:32:19] Will: Okay.
[00:32:19] Rod: They start to smell different.
[00:32:21] Will: Uh-huh. '
[00:32:21] Rod: Cause they emit a pheromone that other ants kind of go,
[00:32:24] "Oh,
[00:32:24] you're a queen."
[00:32:25] Will: Oh. Oh, so you've, you've ascended the s- the social hierarchy?
[00:32:28] Rod: Without ascending the social hierarchy.
[00:32:30] Will: You be the queen. The sup- the superpower is they become a little bit royalty.
[00:32:35] Rod: Well, yeah. So the workers treat them like queens. They bring them food, they carry them around, and they groom them.
[00:32:39] Will: Oh, damn.
[00:32:40] Rod: So this is the, they get the tapeworm and they're like,
[00:32:42] "Yeah,
[00:32:42] I'm gonna help you out, I'm gonna feed you.
[00:32:44] Where do you wanna go? And also, you've got a bit of schmutz on you, I'm gonna eat it off." The infected ants stop working. They rarely leave the nest,
[00:32:50] so
[00:32:51] they just hang out.
[00:32:51] Will: Yeah.
[00:32:52] Rod: While, like, there's generations of regular workers tend to their every whim.
[00:32:55] Will: Generations?
[00:32:56] Rod: Yeah, because the infected ants can live up to 10 times longer than the [00:33:00] other ants.
[00:33:00] Will: Wow. Is that because they're not working or is it because they're, the tapeworm is keeping them holy and pristine?
[00:33:06] Rod: Well, we talked
[00:33:07] about this. Exact- this is exactly one of the, one of the many questions, like what, how, how?
[00:33:11] So yeah, they, they get treated like a queen.
[00:33:13] Will: How long does a queen live compared to a regular ant?
[00:33:14] Rod: 10 times longer these ants than a standard one- Yeah. Okay. Yeah ... flying anyway.
[00:33:19] So what's going on? Sciences, they, they got in there, they sussed out the gene expressions in ant brains and fat
[00:33:24] bodies
[00:33:25] that play roles in metabolic function and immune function. And they found at the molecular level, infected workers showed a profile that was very queen-like at the molecular level.
[00:33:34] But the
[00:33:34] changes weren't affecting their brains, so they weren't changing their personalities directly via the old neurons. They were, as the, the article says, "Intervening in the host's own regulatory networks, which controls metabolism, immune system, aging,
[00:33:48] and
[00:33:49] behavior."
[00:33:49] So it sounds like no downside. It's pretty cool.
[00:33:51] the problem is if you get too many of these infected ants, your colony might collapse obviously- Of course
[00:33:55] around
[00:33:55] because there's no one going queen me. But the question is, what's the value to the tapeworm? Why would a parasite[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] do
[00:34:00] do this?
[00:34:00] Will: You're going Darwin here. All right.
[00:34:02] Rod: Yeah.
[00:34:02] Will: All right. Well,
[00:34:02] Rod: I mean, what I'm not, the
[00:34:03] sciences
[00:34:04] Will: science is. The science is. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:34:05] Rod: I'm just a, I'm just a social-
[00:34:06] Will: Do they, do they, do the ants then poo out some more tapeworm?
[00:34:09] Or is that the woodpecker's job?
[00:34:11] Rod: Well, yeah.
[00:34:12] Will: There's too many animals in this. Like- There's
[00:34:13] Rod: too many animals, I know. It's very confusing. It's the woodpeckers. So
[00:34:16] Will: Oh, they eat the ants?
[00:34:17] Rod: Yeah, they eat the ants.
[00:34:18] Will: So that's the cycle of life.
[00:34:19] Rod: Yeah, exactly that. So the, the healthy ant would fuck off. They'd go, "Holy shit."
[00:34:22] Will: Ah, but the lazy ant-
[00:34:24] Rod: Yeah, the infected ones go, "Hey dude, what's, what's, what's up? Bring me some food." And the woodpeckers eat them. Then the tapeworm larvae get into where they really need to be, which is the bird's gut, which is where they breed.
[00:34:34] Lay eggs, and then they get shat out. So it is the circle of life. That's the advantage to the parasite. So my question is, where's the Disney movie that romanticizes this? 'Cause that'd be far more beautiful than your Simbas and your lions and stuff.
[00:34:46] Will: You've really, you've put-
[00:34:47] Rod: That's the circle of life I want.
[00:34:48] Ants e-eating bird shit, turning into lazy fuckers, getting eaten by birds, getting shat out again. That is the circle of life. That's the beauty.
[00:34:55] Will: Isn't it?
[00:34:58] I know there's been a whole bunch of stories [00:35:00] off our Spanish friends' coast, about, orcas attacking, attacking the yachts
[00:35:03] Rod: the Spanish friends do you
[00:35:04] By the Spanish friends, do
[00:35:05] Will: you mean the Spanish? Yes, indeed. But I'm saying they're friends. but orcas, orcas destroying yachts and, and, and I'm like, "Go or- orcas."
[00:35:11] Clearly on the side of Marx, not, not a- Orcas ... and the capital. apparently there's a new study out that shows they are scared of pilot whales. No one knows why.
[00:35:20] Rod: What?
[00:35:20] Will: Because pilot whales are actually smaller. Uh,
[00:35:22] uh, but-
[00:35:23] Rod: But they
[00:35:23] also have pretty serious teeth, right?
[00:35:25] Will: Maybe. I don't know.
[00:35:26] Maybe orcas are like, "Don't mess with the pilot whale." I don't know. There's a new study
[00:35:28] They're making pilot whale sounds and the orcas are like, "Backing out of here." Something like that.
[00:35:33] Yeah.
[00:35:33] crazy. Yeah. So, you know, wolves of the sea, kings of the, kings of the dog, you know.
[00:35:37] Rod: Back
[00:35:37] the
[00:35:38] in the past, the orcas and the pilot whales hooked up in an embarrassing way,
[00:35:41] and the orcas still can't live it down
[00:35:45] Will: this has been your little bit of science. I just wanted to close out with a quick story, um, of the second reported incident of eel, inside an anus of a human. Oh, yes. Yes.
[00:35:55] Rod: Yes
[00:35:56] Will: this was a Bangladeshi fisherman, who said, he was [00:36:00] fishing and an accident happened.
[00:36:01] Mm-hmm.
[00:36:02] Rod: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:03] Will: The fir- I
[00:36:04] Rod: I
[00:36:04] Will: just
[00:36:04] Rod: fell on
[00:36:04] eel. I just
[00:36:06] Will: the eel . I just fell on it
[00:36:06] Rod: on it.
[00:36:06] Will: The first was, someone in Hong Kong who said he was severely constipated and, and needed some help and thought the eel might help. but just to be clear, eels don't help with either constipation or slipping on them. Anyway, they, the Bangladeshi man is fine.
[00:36:21] They pulled out a 65-centimeter eel.
[00:36:23] Rod: Still alive, right?
[00:36:23] Will: And he's, he's fine. He mo-
[00:36:25] Rod: was
[00:36:25] The eel was alive. They got the eel out of his diaper or his colon, whatever, and it was still-
[00:36:29] Will: Yeah, but eel- ... thrashing about ... eel, for eels, that's a happy environment. You could put them in an MRI, no problems
[00:36:33] A colon-shaped MRI
[00:36:34] Rod: date. it's horrifying.
[00:36:37] Will: give us five stars and send us your stuff
