Everyone loves a good loophole. From a clever workaround that outsmarts the tax man to exploiting a glitch in a video game (Sega Mega Drive all the way), there's something undeniably thrilling about circumventing the system. It taps into our innate desire for freedom, creativity, and that little touch of rebellion. While avoiding tax bills and gaining high scores on Sonic the Hedgehog can certainly get us going, some people have discovered loopholes that arouse a more intimate type of pleasure.
We’re talking about sex. But what exactly constitutes sex? For a lot of people, the term is open to interpretation, especially if you’re trying to stay a virgin to please the Lord or deny your infidelity. We all remember Bill Clinton’s famous speech about not having “sexual relations”. Does this mean that oral sex isn’t sex? And what about anal sex? For some, there is a poophole loophole, while others consider looking at pornography and deep kissing as an act of sex.
Regardless of what you consider sex to be, there seem to be a lot of grey areas as cultural, religious and contextual factors thrust their way into the conversation. Is sex only considered sex if you reach the big O? And what if it's just the tip or a little bit of shaft? Two dicks, no dicks, plastic-covered dick?
Researchers at Indiana University surveyed hundreds of heterosexual adults, male and female, from age 18 all the way up to 96, and asked them if different sexual activities constituted “having sex.” Based on their results, 5% of people believe that penile-vaginal intercourse is not sex. Say what? And we haven’t even gotten started on retirees. They’re on a whole other playing field. For men aged 65 and up, 23% said penis-vagina penetration doesn’t count as sex. It does make us curious indeed about what they get up to in the nursing homes.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, some hold the belief that kissing and “heavy petting” is considered sex. That must be some pretty good snogging. Or perhaps they are terrified of doing wrong in the eyes of the Lord lest they be put to death like in the days of Moses. Although, as sexist and homophobic as it was back then (they literally stoned gay men to death), we did find a loophole for lesbian couples. The Bible never mentions any punishment for girl-on-girl sex. Go for your life ladies. Unless you root a married man, then you’re screwed (and not in a fun way).
In Japan, there is an interesting loophole for prostitution, where the definition of prostitution is strictly limited to coitus between “unacquainted persons,” which means oral sex, anal sex, and other non-coital sex acts are legal. There are also places like Soaplands, a bathhouse service where women can wash men's bodies to get to know them before they do the deed. So technically, they are no longer “unacquainted persons”.
For people who have been raised in tight-knit religious communities like the Mormons, sex loophole exploitation has stepped up a notch. Gone are the days of the chastity belt. Now it’s all about “soaking” or “marinating”. The catch here is that the penis can be fully inside the vagina, but you’re just not allowed to move or ejaculate. According to this loophole, sex is all in the thrust. That’s why you call your best mate and ask them to jump on the bed to create the movement for you. Not even kidding.
So why go to such great lengths to technically not have sex? The research for young people shows that substituting old-school intercourse for oral and anal sex, for example, isn’t so much for religious reasons or personal boundaries, but more about avoiding pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases. Should we tell them you can still get those from oral and anal sex?
And should we tell them about the woman who got pregnant in 2016 from having anal sex? She had a condition called cloaca, a developmental abnormality where the intestinal, urinal and reproductive functions are all performed by the same orifice.
What do you define as sex? Did that time you consider your “first” really count? Or maybe, there’s a loophole that means you’re still a virgin.
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[00:00:00] Will: The number one reasons for sexual substitution, not having penis and vagina, but swapping to anal or oral or other sorts of things, it's avoiding both pregnancy and STDs.
[00:00:11] Rod: So anal, definitely you can't get an STD doing anal. That's a good point, or oral for that matter.
[00:00:16] Will: Yeah. Okay. So they might not be technically perfect on their logic. I don't think I've ever found anyone who's pregnant from oral sex. But I was reading this story from the independence, May, 2016. A woman has become pregnant from anal sex in a case which is believed to be one of the first recorded of its kind. Now, this does have some medical technical terms here, and I've just got to say big hugs to everyone involved. Big hugs to everyone .
[00:00:41] It was one of the biggest political scandals of the 90s. Big politicians acting badly, potential actual abuse of power, and odd stains in odd places. But I'm just gonna play you the key moment. The key moment from President Bill himself.
[00:01:08] Bill: I have to go back to work on my State of the Union speech. And I worked on it till pretty late last night. But I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I'm gonna say this again. I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.
[00:01:26] Will: It's one of the most famous quotes of the 1990s. I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky. But, and this is pretty gory details for the 1990s. There was a dress and it had the only technical term for this is
[00:01:43] Rod: enthusiastic dNA sample.
[00:01:46] Will: I thought you were going to go with cum stain
[00:01:49] Rod: This is a sophisticated show. I don't use the swears
[00:01:52] Will: and so clearly something happened, but Bill Clinton, he reckons nah. It wasn't sex. He had a loophole and today I want to explore a question, what are the loopholes that people have to do the do, but say that they're not doing the do?
[00:02:19] Welcome to the wholesome show
[00:02:21] Rod: the podcast that will exploit any loophole to engage intimately with the whole of science.
[00:02:27] Will: I'm Will Grant.
[00:02:28] Rod: I'm Rod Lamberts.
[00:02:29] Will: And today, as I said, we're taking a deep dive into the idea, the science, the knowledge of sexual loopholes. This question, thank you, listener, Alex, was sent into us. And just a reminder, if you have any questions, topics, curious issues that you would like us to take a deep dive into, send them to cheers at wholesome show. com or.
[00:02:52] Rod: On the youTubes that you're watching right now, potentially, and look, it's a question that's plagued philosophers for millennia. did I have the sex or not?
[00:02:59] Will: There's a lot of people who have tried to loophole their way out of sex to say what they did was not sex for whatever reason.
[00:03:09] Rod: When we got this suggestion, we're like, all right, The first thing that struck me was obviously, cause you know, we're eggheads, define what the hell is a sex act or not. Who said what about it?
[00:03:18] Will: Oh my God. What makes a sex act?
[00:03:20] Rod: I found this site, right? It's a go to site for me for most sexual information. 17. com. No, not a porn site. Advice site.
[00:03:28] Will: Are you serious?
[00:03:30] Rod: Yeah. 17. com. Under love slash dating advice , what is sex? Does masturbation count? Do I have to have an orgasm for it to be sex?
[00:03:38] Will: You know what? I found that as well. I was looking through there's definitely people, and we'll come to this in a bit, who treat that as a loophole for it's not sex.
[00:03:46] Rod: Sweetheart. I didn't come.
[00:03:48] Will: So not sex. What else did or didn't count as sex?
[00:03:50] Rod: Well, there's talks about, you know, time, length, like if I was just sort of two seconds, it's still sex and unanimously. Yeah, dude, if you popped it in
[00:04:00] Will: even if it wasn't good, it still is. Okay.
[00:04:03] Rod: You popped it in. There's the old outer course, which I'd not heard of instead of the intercourse, which I assume is what the French would call frottage.
[00:04:10] Will: Or the Oxfordians would call the Oxford method.
[00:04:14] Rod: Does it clutch it between the thighs?
[00:04:15] Will: I think so. So does that count or not count?
[00:04:17] Rod: Depends who you ask.
[00:04:18] Will: I got a great journal article here that I read, which was great title. Would you say you had sex if? From the journal of American medical association. And there's some really interesting stats here of different sorts of things.
[00:04:29] Rod: Does it tell you, like, before you get into the details, like. If you're asking a teenage boy, would you say he had sex if? It'd be yes, I would, but if you're asking like a young lady and her father said, have you had sex? She'd be like, well, no
[00:04:43] Will: are you saying it's contextual?
[00:04:44] Rod: I am
[00:04:44] Will: The first one that got me is would you say you had sex if you had some deep kissing?
[00:04:49] Rod: What are we kissing?
[00:04:50] Will: I think it's mouth to mouth
[00:04:52] Rod: because like if you go in below the pants and deep kissing
[00:04:54] Will: well, we'll come to that in a second. No, but this is mouth kissing. 2. 9 percent of women and 1. 4 percent of men say yes, that's sex. That is a strong claim that the, you know, one in 50 people say a big kiss is sex.
[00:05:07] Rod: Is it? My numbers just went way up.
[00:05:10] Will: I come up the scale a bit. So you touch a person's genitals. Women, 11%, men, 17 percent are saying they've had sex.
[00:05:17] Rod: Do they mention if it's deliberate or not? Like the brush past in the subway?
[00:05:20] Will: The brush past. No, I think it's only if the penis or the vagina is out. I don't think it counts on top of clothes. Here's where we get to some of the interesting loopholes. So Bill Clinton's. Oral contacts with a person's genitals. So oral sex. And here's what Bill Clinton is saying. Only 37 to 43 percent of people count this as sex. 60 ish percent counted as no.
[00:05:42] Rod: See, this was in clerks, that famous black and white movie by Kevin Smith and dude's girlfriend is, I think it's Dante, whatever the main guy's name is, he's all angry with his girlfriend because apparently she gives a lot of the blow jobs and she's basically claiming it's not sex. And I'm thinking if you're putting a dick in your mouth, that seems sexual to me. I mean, maybe I'm old fashioned.
[00:05:59] Will: There are some people who say if it's got sex in the title, oral sex, it's sex, but I'm here to say that maybe it's cultural, but I just wanted to read one, one last ones of these stats.
[00:06:10] So your traditional sort of sex, penis and vagina, heterosexual sex, wait, 99. 2 percent of men say yes, that's sex. There was another study where it got nearly 95% of people agreed that penile vaginal intercourse meant sex. I get that's not the only type of sex, but to get 5% of people say, okay, you put the penis in the vagina.
[00:06:32] Rod: Not sex though, . What is it?
[00:06:35] Will: How do you not get a hundred percent?
[00:06:37] Rod: You know what it is? It's immersion heating.
[00:06:39] Will: We'll come to that one in a bit.
[00:06:41] Rod: I found some others on that. I'll give you just a little more because there's a little more on whether it's sex or not. Cause you've started it off well here. So 11 points. com, you know that website. So they were creating a survey from Indiana university. Hundreds, several hundred of heterosexual adults, male and female aged 18 up to 96. And so, you know, there's standard stuff, you know, just the tip 5 percent of men and nearly 6 percent of women said, no
[00:07:03] Will: that's not sex.
[00:07:04] Rod: Just the tip isn't sex.
[00:07:06] Will: So there is for some people, there is a depth element
[00:07:11] Rod: virgin. We did not have the sex.
[00:07:14] Will: We'll come to some of those people in a second. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:07:17] Rod: Penis, vagina, sex, but with condom.
[00:07:19] Will: I have encountered people who've claimed this, not to me. What's the percentages?
[00:07:23] Rod: 6. 7 percent all up say not sex. Intercourse with condom, because no flesh on flesh.
[00:07:29] Will: Some people take the definition. Yeah. It's got to have skin to skin contact or with a membrane.
[00:07:35] Rod: Yeah. We didn't get into what kind of condom materials. So if it was lamb skin, lamb intestine, for example
[00:07:41] Will: as we've talked about before,
[00:07:42] Rod: we have. Receiving oral sex. Over a quarter said it wasn't sex, performing it nearly 30 percent said it wasn't sex. So receiving it slightly different to performing it. And I don't know what I think about that. Like if you put your mouth on it or a mouth goes on yours, I don't see them as different, but you know, I'm old fashioned. Manual stimulation, getting it so being whacked off, 52 percent said not sex. So more than half said not sex, more than half.
[00:08:09] Will: According to those people.
[00:08:10] Rod: According to those, but here are my favorite. There's some age related loopholes. There are age relationships here. So regular penis, vagina, sex, 5. 2 percent of people across the board said it wasn't sex, right?
[00:08:21] Will: And this thing, of course, not the only type of sex, obviously, if you don't have penis in the relationship or don't have vagina in the relationship, you can still have sex according to even those weird definitions, but it's still weird. There is a chunk of people. So I had that 97, 99. 7, which is a gap and you've got 5%. I just don't understand how there are people that are saying. No, that's not sex.
[00:08:44] Rod: Well, let's get to the retirees. For men, 65 and up regular penis vagina sex 22. 7 percent said that penetration doesn't count as sex.
[00:08:55] Will: What is their bar? It's fifth base on both sides.
[00:08:59] Rod: You've gotta have a finger in the butt. You've got to be screaming like a banshee. And I don't know people next to you climax as well. Then it's sex before that.
[00:09:05] Will: I don't understand how much further
[00:09:07] Rod: how much further is there, especially if you're one dude with one ding dong. It's like,
[00:09:12] sweetheart
[00:09:13] Will: You know what that is? Retirees can struggle with surveys sometimes.
[00:09:17] Rod: Penis, vagina sex with no male orgasm, 10 percent across the board, nearly 11 percent across the board. If the dude doesn't climax, it's not sex, but then you've got age related.
[00:09:28] Will: Did you have, if the, in a heterosexual relationship, if the woman doesn't climax?
[00:09:33] Rod: Women don't climax. That's in here. But the female orgasm, but in that with no male orgasm, 65 and older, 36%. It's not sex unless they've done the shooting. You can root like a bunny in your nursing home. Anal sex, there were no caveats. 19 percent of people in that survey said it wasn't sex.
[00:09:53] Will: I've definitely found the same. I found a bunch of people saying somewhere around 80 percent of people saying, yeah, 70 to 80 percent believing that anal sex is sex.
[00:10:01] Rod: But over 65, 50 percent of the men said it ain't sex, and a third of the women said it isn't sex. So if you want to get wacky without getting in trouble, you've got to find yourself a 66 year old
[00:10:12] Will: That might be a WW2 thing or something.
[00:10:14] Rod: No, this was done more recently.
[00:10:15] Will: We did it different back in the day. Somewhere between third base and fourth base is
[00:10:19] Rod: you know how long ago world war two ended, right? So if you're 65, you probably didn't see much.
[00:10:23] Will: I'm going to come to some of these other things, but I did find this interesting thing that definitions of anal sex you know, when it started
[00:10:30] Rod: how is there a contest?
[00:10:32] Will: Yeah, not definitions, but heterosexuals may view anal sex as fooling around or as foreplay. This view dates back to the 1600s
[00:10:40] Rod: foreplay.
[00:10:41] Will: Yes. Yes. as many people say in the traditional American baseball regime of first base, second base, third base, fourth, anal sex is often called fifth base, but as foreplay that, that is.
[00:10:54] Rod: Straight to fifth base for foreplay.
[00:10:56] Will: Strong foreplay.
[00:10:57] Rod: Okay. Now that we're both warmed up.
[00:10:59] Will: So, there are a variety of weird ways that people define the boundary on where sex is. And I think, okay, which people are right?
[00:11:09] Rod: I know who's right. The people I agree with. I mean, we all know that's how it works. I think basically from the boy point of view, if I'm putting the old champ in any part of someone's body, I'm having sex. I mean, ear, nose, I don't care. In their little hand, it's all sex.
[00:11:27] Will: So I think what we've got here though, is what's going on is a bunch of people that are choosing to define sex in a way that might suit them. I think we've got some people that are defining sex a little bit more liberally that they're positive about it. Like it's the heavy kissing or touching of genitals.
[00:11:45] Rod: Is that positive? If you define that as not
[00:11:46] Will: I'm just saying is it progressive or is it further? Or is it widening the boundaries? Like the teenage boys that you know, have you had sex? Yeah
[00:11:55] Rod: I saw a genital and I touched a boob in the bus.
[00:12:00] Will: Yeah, so I think there is some people, perhaps, I think heavy kissing, I can't quite believe that would be realistically sex.
[00:12:07] Rod: For sex positive people, I think it's a lie. For anti sex people, I can totally believe them going, no, that's rootin
[00:12:12] Will: I can believe they're against it, but it's weird. But then I think, you know, there's, it's weird defining the boundary down. As in to say things like anal sex and oral sex, not being sex.
[00:12:22] Rod: That's insane. What about intense eye contact?
[00:12:24] Will: Definitely there are some cultures that, that might? I think the interesting thing is why people might have different definitions of sex. And I was looking through this and I found a few different things. Yeah, well, not different definitions of sex, but why people might follow through a sex loophole to say that they hadn't had sex when maybe they had. But I wanna go through, let's go through some of the classic loopholes
[00:12:49] Rod: the classic loop holes. These ones you've used yourself,
[00:12:51] Will: The classic loopholes. And so we've mentioned a couple of these. No, not ones I've used myself. so, these are people that certainly argue that these are not versions of sex. . And so obviously I'm not diving into the heavy petting, but there's definitely people who believe the condom story.
[00:13:05] Rod: You're wearing a condom, it's not sex.
[00:13:06] Will: Yep. My loophole was, I would wear a condom and it really wasn't sex because our junk wasn't really touching. There are people who say that. I don't know. I don't know if they believe it but
[00:13:18] Rod: What I'd love to know, and I'm Bet we don't have those numbers, the context in which they say that, as in the people who say that are in relationships and trying to get out of trouble. Or try not to get into a relationship because they've done that and it's like, we're in love now.
[00:13:31] Will: So this is a loophole where it's trying to say you didn't cheat. And I think Bill Clinton falls into that category.
[00:13:37] Rod: He wasn't wearing a condom.
[00:13:38] Will: No, he wasn't but I think it's that defining of oral sex as not sex is the same sort of thing as no, he had a condom so it didn't achieve the level of sex so it wasn't cheating
[00:13:48] Rod: there was no risk of pregnancy, but that all hinged around the word relations. He didn't say, I do not have sex with that woman. No, that was very deliberate. I remember this being pulled apart at the time. And they're like, he said it every time
[00:13:58] Will: you're drilling into the wrong word here.
[00:13:59] Rod: I'll drill into whatever I want. It's not sex, but he always said sexual relations, always sexual relations. Never said sex. I did not have sex with that woman.
[00:14:06] Will: All right, let's keep going with some of these. I want to go some of the people who've employed some of these loopholes. This is as as I mentioned a little bit before in 1885, one of the Mormon churches top leaders he was 73 year old apostle Albert Carrington argued that he shouldn't be excommunicated after his decades of extramarital sexual relationships with multiple younger women because He only put in the tip of his penis and part of the shaft, reportedly to less than a total depth of four inches and pulled out before ejaculation. So, so his definition is just the tip
[00:14:42] Rod: plus part of the shaft.
[00:14:43] Will: Tip and shaft. Well, unless you had four inches of tip.
[00:14:47] Rod: Isn't that normal?
[00:14:49] Will: But anyway, he says just the tip and four.
[00:14:51] Rod: What if you're all tip? Like I saw a documentary on a dude with like the smallest penis in the world and he's cruising around looking for people with small penises and trying to, you know, make it better. And he was pretty much all tip.
[00:15:01] Will: Does he ever get to have sex then? He did double down with the, just the tip plus no ejaculation.
[00:15:07] Rod: Maybe I'm only speaking for myself here, but if it's just the tip, I'm not surprised there was no ejaculation. I'm high maintenance then,
[00:15:12] Will: well, there is a, we'll come back to that in a bit. Building on Albert Carrington's definition. There's a bunch of people who say as long as there's no ejaculation then it doesn't count as sex in the eyes of God
[00:15:24] Rod: As usual, the ladies' role is whatever so she was there too.
[00:15:28] Will: No, but what they might say is, yes, she was having heavy petting or special cuddles or whatever. I mean, and I'm not sure if they're caring or counting, if the female friend is getting to orgasm, but what they're saying is, as long as the gentleman doesn't, then it doesn't really count.
[00:15:44] Rod: And the people were talking about. The idea of the female orgasm is like, what, a fish that can't swim.
[00:15:51] Will: Probably. Probably some of these people might be a little bit reserved in that way. But there's a whole bunch of people that are arguing this. There's obviously a lot of Catholics throughout history who have said, yep, if you pull out and you don't ejaculate, then God doesn't mind.
[00:16:06] Rod: Can I give you a thing on that? I looked at it sex loopholes in the old Testament. There aren't many and none of them are good for women. I mean, the bad ones, homosexual acts with another man, you get stoned to death.
[00:16:17] Will: But that's not a loophole.
[00:16:18] Rod: No, but I'm getting to that. So all the things you can get stoned to death for bestiality, sex with your daughter in law, sex with your mother or stepmother, sex with your brother or sister, raping an engaged woman, all those stoned to death, every damn one. Loophole for a man, if a married woman has sex with another man, whether he's married or not, they both get stoned to death. But if a married man wants to have sex with a woman who is not claimed by another man, through marriage or engagement, they have nothing to say about that.
[00:16:45] Will: So, a married man can loophole it, okay.
[00:16:48] Rod: As long as the woman is not, let's be honest, owned by a different man, father or other chap. Also, gay men having sex, as I said, are wrong. But apparently the Old Testament says nothing about girl on girl, at all. So, if you're a lesbian, in the eyes of God, well, you just don't get seen. Do what you want.
[00:17:04] Will: No penis, so no sex.
[00:17:07] Rod: Yeah. It doesn't matter. It's all loophole from there on girl. It's all loophole in the old Testament.
[00:17:13] Will: Okay. Just on the not ejaculating I did come across a whole bunch of sex magic people, you know, like alistair Valley and the occult people
[00:17:22] Rod: Alah kazam?
[00:17:22] Will: Yeah, no, a little bit more. Late 19th century, you know, we're dressing up in purple and we're doing Druids and we're doing the long sex magic sort of stuff
[00:17:30] Rod: eyes wide shut.You gotta wear a mask and chant.
[00:17:32] Will: And they were big on the, and I don't think they were calling it not sex, but they said, you know, no orgasm is a really big thing.
[00:17:38] Rod: Is this a very male of me to say, but what's the point? We all know the point is to get there as quickly as possible. Then you can have a beer and watch TV.
[00:17:46] Will: But the classic two loopholes that a lot of people have been enjoying recently.
[00:17:51] Rod: Yeah. A lot of people have been enjoying
[00:17:54] Will: the first one. The first one is soaking. Have you heard of soaking?
[00:17:58] Rod: Sadly, yes.
[00:17:59] Will: Soaking. It's again, big in the Mormon community, apparently. So the concept of soaking is where there is penis and vagina, but no movement, no thrusting.
[00:18:11] Rod: The name they chose too. It's pretty much as asexual, unsexual as you want. It's like of all the things you can hear, what Do you want it? Do you want to soak? It's like, nah, I'm not in the mood anymore.
[00:18:19] Will: Doing your laundry.
[00:18:20] Rod: I know. And also, you know, all I think of the first time I heard it is your wrinkled fingers After you come out of the water after a long time. Honestly, that's the first image. What have you been doing? I've been soaking.
[00:18:30] Will: Apparently, this is a thing that's particularly in the the Mormon University, Brigham Young University, because you can get kicked out of the university for having sex. Apparently, a bunch of the kids there are like, okay, well, we can do the heavy petting. And then we can get closer and we can put it in, but don't move. I did read a story of someone from Reddit who was describing the journey. The first time we soaked, we were on the floor of my living room and she just asked me to put it in, but not move it around. We never referred to it as anything in particular. We just did it. I think if I'd given it a name like soaking or floating, she would have been pretty upset. So let's don't name this thing. It wasn't premeditated. She just had a strong desire to have sex and was willing to push the boundaries of her virginity as far as her sensibilities would allow.
[00:19:15] There wasn't anything special about this maneuver. We would just lay in the missionary position motionless, but it was hot as hell. So, they're enjoying it. All of that build up and anticipation made it super exciting. Needless to say, it didn't last long. After maybe two minutes of just laying there as motionless as I could, I pulled out and came on her stomach.
[00:19:32] I don't think she came. She most definitely still considered herself a virgin after that, continuing to wear her purity ring and alluding to it in private conversations. I don't know what her rationale was, but she still said that she was going to wait until she was married to have sex.
[00:19:47] We did it three or four more times after that. There was always squirming on both our parts, but never really any thrusts. I guess squirming is technically moving, but it's not like her preacher was reffing the event. I was inside her. It felt good. And sometimes we would kind of grind involuntarily. It was torturous for us both, but it was going as far as she could justify going.
[00:20:05] Rod: So, squirming isn't technically moving, it's moving, grinding, moving, but imagine this is your first time, you're a boy, I can't speak to what it's like to be a vagina bearer and do this, but as a boy, you're told, okay, you can put it in but you're not allowed to move, you'd be like This might be worse.
[00:20:22] Will: Maybe that's the torture. Like he's saying that's the torture. I think it could be quite enjoyable. There is the jumped up version where apparently you get your friends to bounce on the bed or some version like that. They call it jump humping or derfing or something like that.
[00:20:34] Look, the thing about this is it went viral on Tik TOK, not actual videos of this, of people talking about saying all the kids in Brigham young university are doing this. All the Mormon kids are into it, but a big chunk of me says, yes, I bet this has happened. Absolutely. I bet there are young couples that are like, We're not allowed to have sex.
[00:20:54] Rod: But what if the bed moves or if there's like an earthquake
[00:20:58] Will: or even bringing the third person in, I don't know about that, but what is the line that we can get up to? and if they're thinking what will God not like. God doesn't like the coming in there. But maybe God's okay with you being there, but just not coming. Or maybe God says, don't do anything.
[00:21:12] Rod: Do you know what I think I'd do near Brigham Young university? I'd open up a hammock store.
[00:21:16] Will: You reckon you could swing your way?
[00:21:17] Rod: Because as soon as they're soaking in a hammock, there's going to be some movement. And as soon as that movement begins, they're like, well, God moves the earth, not me. Boom. But but imagine like I came to you and I said, look, me and Willa Mina, we're gonna soak tonight. I'm not allowed to move, but would you mind coming in and jumping up and down on the bed for me? Can you imagine? I'm sitting there like this and you're going yeah, yeah.
[00:21:37] Will: Do you know, I think that could be fun to be a supportive friend like that.
[00:21:43] Rod: But then you'd be like, now swap. because it wouldn't be weird and it wouldn't be sexual.
[00:21:48] Will: No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying
[00:21:50] Rod: would you have done that? 17 year old mate. He said, I'm going to do some soaking. I want it to go further, but I can't do it myself. Would you come and jump up and down the bed while we are doing that? Would you be like, yeah, I love you bro
[00:22:00] Will: I would, I'd be like, this is I'm happy to you're a good guy. I'm happy to help out on this scenario.
[00:22:05] Rod: Yeah. I'd be like, fuck off, have sex with her or don't, but I'm not coming in there to watch you do that. You're a better guy than me.
[00:22:11] Will: I'm a friend. I'm like the neighbor who brings the lawnmower over when you need it and I'll jump on your bed if you can't. So I did say, I looked this up on Snopes to see if this was real and I think it's probably overblown. Like I'll bet there's the boys and the girls that are like, maybe we could just do a little bit, but not really do it. I don't doubt that. And think, and they think they're getting away with in the eyes of the Lord. I doubt it's actually a vast number and I'll come to some stats in a bit. The reason why I looked it up on red tube, one of the pornographic sites
[00:22:43] Rod: at work?
[00:22:44] Will: No, I didn't. Well, it would be research, but I looked up soaking on red tube and there was
[00:22:48] Rod: Honestly, there's a porn niche for that. Look at these two people lying still together,
[00:22:52] Will: but this is the thing. Everyone says there's porn for everything
[00:22:55] Rod: if you can imagine it, someone's into it, there's no question.
[00:22:58] Will: If you can imagine it, someone's into it and someone has made it, but I looked it up and it wasn't there. There was Mormon porn that was like, we're in our our white underpants thing.
[00:23:06] Rod: They go from the crown to the driveway.
[00:23:08] Will: They had removed some of the underpants, but they looked very like they were having a good time and they looked very pleasant, but there was none of people just lying there soaking.
[00:23:17] Rod: You know, I saw another thing looking on a website called ex Mormon, they talked about the wearing the condom as a loophole. And the other one was, oral is moral. And the old hand job thing. Not sex. Oral is moral.
[00:23:28] Will: Look again, these definitional fights, clearly there are the religious leaders in the community, whatever, who are saying no, that counts. Like there's definitely people like heavy petting, you've had the sex.
[00:23:38] Rod: when does petting move into heavy? When liquids are involved or?
[00:23:41] Will: Yeah. I think so. I think so. When you swapping spit and you're getting so sweaty with the heavy petting.
[00:23:46] Rod: So if you're rubbing the outside of your lady friend, for example, that's just petting. But then if a finger bends, then it's heavy petting.
[00:23:53] Will: We're well past that. We're on one that a lot of people talk about, and as we've mentioned before, that is a loophole that is not sex necessarily in the eyes of some.
[00:24:04] Rod: Does it rhyme?
[00:24:05] Will: Rhyme with what? Everything rhymes.
[00:24:07] Rod: Does it rhyme with loophole?
[00:24:08] Will: It can rhyme with loophole. Yes, the poophole. Many people have defined as both not sex, but also as we'll come to later, not necessarily a way to get pregnant so a way to avoid one of the big things of pregnancy.
[00:24:22] Rod: And one of the big things of pregnancy is a baby. The poop hole loophole. And I was rummaging around as you do, and I found this on medium, they're talking about this Japanese loophole for prostitution. And this is about your level of acquaintance. So they say there that prostitution is okay if the people are unacquainted. If they don't know each other. So it could mean oral sex, anal sex, blah, blah, blah, all fine, but straight up rooting someone with whom you're not acquainted, okay. But if you're acquainted, it's bad. And they've got a loophole on that. Place is called soap lands. So what you do is the gentleman goes there. They pay the lady to soak them up and do all that sort of stuff, which means they've become acquainted. But if they go on to have the intercourse, you haven't paid them for the intercourse you paid them to soap you up. So that's a nifty loophole. And so yeah, you pay for the bath, Gets you acquainted, but then the fingering's free, I believe is what it says above most of the the thresholds of these institutions. I like that one.
[00:25:18] Will: I read some studies on sexual substitution. So the idea of if you take in heterosexual couples, penis and vagina being the sex, other things as being some form of sexual substitution, as we've said before, some people view anal sex is not quite sex or oral sex or something like that, but we're also swapping out for other different reasons.
[00:25:39] And there's a couple of studies that I just wanted to pull apart here because I've always wondered about this. How common are these behaviors? Are people actually doing them? Is this a good thing to make a joke about or are people actually really, you know. The key study that I wanted to talk about was this going most of the way technical virginity amongst American adolescents.
[00:26:01] So these are groups of people who consider themselves technically still virgins because by their definition you lose your virginity by having penis and vagina. But they've done other things. We've talked about a few of these here, heavy petting, hand genital touching, oral sex, anal sex. And this is the idea of sexual substitution. Now there's two findings from this study that I think are the most interesting one. So first of all, whilst it's good for a joke, the idea of young kids swapping out the anal in instead of that, it's super rare.
[00:26:38] Rod: According to one study
[00:26:39] Will: but this is a big nationally representative sample in America, large numbers of people and they got all of the ones who consider themselves technically virgins and the number of people then who had anal sex, it was less than 1%. So, it's not a lot. Whereas. Oral sex and still consider themselves a virgin, no, not much. Depending on the age, depending on the age group, it was much higher.
[00:27:03] Like it's in the 20 to 30%. So, so the sexual substitution that a lot of these youth are doing is that. Like this idea of, you know, these Mormon kids or something like that. Fuck me in the ass cause I love Jesus. It's funny, but it's not actually super common. But the second thing, is this a religious thing?
[00:27:24] Is it religious kids who are doing this so that they can continue to have sex whilst not having sex in the eyes of God? No. No. No. No. No. No. Definitely not. No, the number one reasons for sexual substitution Either not having penis and vagina, but swapping to anal or oral or other sorts of things, it's kids avoiding both pregnancy and STDs and it seems like there, there are very few.
[00:27:50] Rod: So anal definitely you can't get an STD doing anal . Or oral for that matter.
[00:27:54] Will: Yeah. Okay. So they might not be technically informed. I don't think I've ever found anyone who's pregnant from oral sex but I was reading this story from the independent May, 2016, a woman has become pregnant from anal sex in a case which is believed to be one of the first recorded of its kind. Now, this does have some medical technical terms here and I've just got to say big hugs to everyone involved. Big hugs to everyone involved.
[00:28:20] While it would appear to be a medical impossibility, a U S doctor has spoken of his surprise at discovering it had occurred in one of his patients. Dr. Brian's Steichner explained that one of his patients had a condition termed and I wish there was a better term from this because we know the word in other contexts.
[00:28:36] Rod: It's not your fault, man.
[00:28:37] Will: It's called cloaca.
[00:28:38] Rod: Oh so they're biologically unusual
[00:28:40] Will: not as unusual as you might think. Cloaca is a condition in a female fetus or let's say a fetus that has vagina presenting where the vagina and rectum don't develop normally. And instead the intestinal urinal and reproductive functions are all performed by the same orifice. So basically it does happen. I don't know the case numbers for that, but potentially it's a developmental abnormality. Now, reconstructive surgery would be to separate into a vaginal opening and a rectal opening and off you go. Surgery was botched. Well, the uterus remained connected to the rectum. The vagina was not connected
[00:29:18] Rod: but she could poo. She could still poo.
[00:29:20] Will: Yes. I think the intestinal and the uteral pipes, for want of a better term, both came out the rectum, which was not the goal of the original doctors, but it happened anyway.
[00:29:32] Rod: Wait. So you're going to tell me, maybe you're going to tell me this. Did she have a baby and did she poo it?
[00:29:37] Will: Years later, she became pregnant to the surprise of Dr. Steichner and his colleagues. We knew about her condition and we had followed her for a decade. After doing a whole bunch of x rays, we determined that she got pregnant from having anal sex.
[00:29:52] The condition raised the urgent question of whether a safe birth would be possible for both mother and child as she did not have a viable vaginal passage. She had a c section.
[00:30:02] Rod: So she could have pooed a baby? Technically, she could have pooed a baby. I used to say that to other people's children, they're like, how do babies happen? It's like, well, the dude does the thing, like spoofs in a tum and then she poos a baby.
[00:30:14] Will: But that's not helping.
[00:30:16] Rod: No, I'm not trying to help. It's other people's children. It's not my problem. I wind them up and then I hand them back. But I used to say, and then they poo a baby.
[00:30:22] Will: So, who knows about your biology or anyone's biology? Just be careful. It is technically possible, but it depends, you know, what is the loophole that you're avoiding? Are you avoiding being seen as cheating? Avoiding the eyes of God? Avoiding your own definitions of virginity?
[00:30:40] Rod: Yeah, I don't know. Look, as always, as so often happens, it's in the eye of the beholder, but I love a loophole.
[00:30:50] Will: What are we going to talk about next week?
[00:30:52] Rod: What do you got? Give me one.
[00:30:54] Will: I've long thought for you that your ultimate job is to be Australia's leading 15 year old boy. A troll. Someone who likes to pull people apart, help things apart.
[00:31:05] And I was just reading a little bit about red teaming in AI development. And the goal of the red teaming is to see what you can make the AI do, how bad it can be.
[00:31:16] Rod: That is my job.
[00:31:16] Will: How easily can we make it say, Nazi things. How easy can we
[00:31:20] Rod: Can I combine that with cult leader? Cause I think I'm onto something.
[00:31:23] Will: I don't know if you can. There's a topic we could explore. Who are the red team people in AI and what do they do?
[00:31:30] Rod: I do need some career advice. This isn't a bad thing at all.
[00:31:33] Will: Alright, what else you got?
[00:31:34] Rod: Astronauts, do they get insubordinate when they're on missions? And if they do, what the fuck can you do? Like if you're in mission control and there's a dude up in space and they say do this and they go, Nup. You're in the brig. Not gonna. Put yourself in the brig. Yeah, come home and then we're gonna do blah. Nup, not gonna. Come home. Do this. Step out there. No, I'm not going to do it.
[00:31:52] Will: Is this like the astronauts that took the, that smuggled stuff into space, like the ham and cheese sandwich
[00:31:57] Rod: Beyond that episode, which we did, it was excellent.
[00:31:58] Will: Ham and rye.
[00:32:00] Rod: or was it a picture of their mother in a bikini or something?
[00:32:03] Will: Oh no, it was the psychic experiment.
[00:32:05] Rod: Yes, so I just wanted to let you can say this is mission control. We need to do blah, blah, blah. I'm not gonna look,
[00:32:09] Will: I think these astronauts are goody two shoes.
[00:32:12] Rod: Not always.
[00:32:14] Will: All right. Weather bureaus around the world are admitting that we need a new category of hurricane and cyclone.
[00:32:21] Rod: We're up to nine.
[00:32:22] Will: Well, it's category six and it's like, I know that these are human names to natural phenomena, but it is a bit of a sign of the end times where you're like, okay, let's, well, five's maxed out, we got to go next level.
[00:32:35] Rod: Let's turn into the Richter scale and make a logarithmic. Fuck it.
[00:32:39] Will: You know, we're going to have all sorts of natural disasters just going off the charts
[00:32:42] Rod: same, like the fire warnings around our fair City right now. They now start at pretty shit. The bottom used to be everything's sweet, don't worry about it.
[00:32:52] Will: Everything's sweet. We gave up on that years ago. Bright green. It's a cuddly color. It's like when you go to the beach now and there's no You can just jump in and go like crazy. You gotta start at caution. And you know, I think Australia, by definition, you start at caution.
[00:33:04] Rod: Yeah, particularly if you're not from around these parts.
[00:33:06] Will: You are within one meter of a spider at all times.
[00:33:09] Rod: That's good. I got another one. So, this happened, like, my first year of my PhD, I was sitting in a seminar, and people were chatting away, and there was this master student who said, we've pretty much made all the big discoveries.
[00:33:19] And she'd read this book by a guy called John Horgan, and I'd just read it too, and it was called The End of Science. And I remember reading and thinking, Oh, fucking shit. And she read it and went, This is totally real. And it's happened periodically for decades, like, Have we made all the big discoveries?
[00:33:34] Not all the discoveries, but everything big. And there are a bunch of people who periodically Utterly believe it.
[00:33:38] Will: We're at the end. You know, when you think about it, It's really quite weird. I get, you know, it's like the, We'll only ever need six computers or something like that. No, but it's interesting where people go, Nah, pretty much the rest is details. We've worked out the big question. And that's it. How deluded can you be as a scientist?
[00:33:55] Rod: Well, I wonder if it's possible that one day we could.
[00:33:59] Will: Another one. This one comes from James Gill, listener. Sewage surveillance.
[00:34:03] Rod: As a hobby or what are you doing, sweetheart? ahh I'll be back in an hour. Just going to go look at the neighbors.
[00:34:09] Will: Look, there is clearly after, after COVID, you know, we're detecting COVID in the poo. We're detecting cocaine in the poo. As we've talked about before, the KGB are detecting, you know, what's going on in Nixon's poo. Clearly, it's a thing that's I'm surprised, you know, we haven't investigated more. When scientists go and count the poo.
[00:34:29] Rod: We haven't locked up the sewers properly. All right. My last one then. Futurists. What the fuck is a futurist? How do you know if they're any good? And this is one of the ones I really wonder about. Cause I mean, I've met a few, we know some. How long do you have to wait to find out if a futurist is any good at their job? What are the criteria for your futurist? Or like, I'm very confused by this as a role and I also want to know how you get that job. Like what is it? Do you have any answers to that because I don't. I know two people at least who are futurists.
[00:34:54] Will: Some people reckon the history, the past is exactly as open as the future.
[00:35:00] Rod: I don't know what to do with that.
[00:35:01] Will: What do you want to do? I want to go philosophical. Who reckons there are no big discoveries left? I want to understand these people that say, you know, we've, we figured it all out. What's going on? Why do they think they've figured it all out? What puts them in that place? And why do they think, yep, I know everything. Who are they? Are they of a certain type of people. Are they?
[00:35:20] Rod: Yes, they are.
[00:35:21] Will: What makes them so confident?
[00:35:23] Rod: I'm happy to do that.
[00:35:24] Will: Send them in, listener. We want your ideas, your curiosities.
[00:35:28] Rod: And how do they do that? How do they send it in? Send Will a fax.
[00:35:36] Will: Send them in. We want we want the things that you're curious about. What do you need to know? What do you need us to deep dive into? Send them in to cheers@wholesomeshow. com or hit us up in a comment down there on YouTube.
