Venting might be making you angrier, Neanderthals apparently had a type, and unborn babies are already forming strong opinions about kale. This article is a tidy little reminder that your instincts are not always your friends, your ancestors were messier than your family group chat, and your taste buds may have started judging you before you were even born. We finish with a surprisingly sensible idea for making pokie machines less addictive, which feels almost too responsible for this episode.
Why Venting Might Make You Angrier
Everyone loves the idea of venting. You blow off steam, you feel lighter, you move on. Except a meta analysis from researchers at Ohio State suggests the steam metaphor is nonsense. Venting does not reliably reduce anger, and in a lot of cases, it makes it worse. You do not release the feeling, you rehearse it. You keep your body in fight mode, you keep your brain circling the same story, and you basically train yourself to stay mad.
The annoying part is that the alternative is boring. The study points to activities that reduce physiological arousal, things like deep breathing and yoga, as more effective. Not as satisfying as a rant, but apparently better for not turning your afternoon into a rage flavoured spiral.
Neanderthals and Their Human Preferences
Now to ancient romance, which is never as romantic as people want it to be. Research published in Science suggests Neanderthal DNA is missing from certain parts of the human genome in a way that hints at a pattern. The pairing may have been more often Neanderthal men with human women, rather than the other way around.
There are a lot of possible reasons, from social dynamics to biology to who survived long enough to pass on genes. But the takeaway is simple. Neanderthals are not just a museum exhibit. They are in you. Not everywhere, not evenly, but enough to prove that human history has always involved mixing, moving, and making questionable decisions.
Fetuses and Their Disdain for Kale
Then we get to the funniest study of the week. Researchers used ultrasound to look at fetal facial expressions after mothers swallowed capsules containing carrot or kale flavours. Carrot got what looked like a smile. Kale got what looked like a grimace. Which is either the earliest evidence of taste preference, or the first recorded case of someone rejecting kale on principle.
It suggests flavour learning may start in the womb, which is both adorable and slightly terrifying. Your child might be forming opinions about your lunch choices before they have lungs.
Pokies Need This Sound
Finally, pokie machines. There is evidence that adding sounds for losses as well as wins can make gambling less addictive. Right now, the machines are designed to celebrate everything, including moments that are objectively bad for you. If you make losses feel like losses, you remove some of the psychological trickery that keeps people locked in.
So that is the week. Venting might be a trap, Neanderthals were busy, fetuses are already judging your vegetables, and pokie machines could use a little honesty. Stay curious, stay sceptical, and if you feel like ranting, maybe try breathing first.
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Venting Myth
02:40 Science Debunks Catharsis
04:06 Meta Analysis Breakdown
05:40 Calm Down Not Amp Up
06:59 Jogging And Anger
09:25 Why We Love Anger
10:53 Play Metal And Fun
11:48 Neanderthal DNA Mystery
13:07 Who Mated With Whom
14:17 Neanderthal Dating Bias
15:16 Hybrid Myths and Mechanics
16:28 Picky Eaters Rant
18:54 Fetuses Taste Flavours
20:08 Carrot Smiles vs Kale Grimaces
23:30 Pokies Need Losing Sounds
27:47 Petition and Sign-Off
SOURCES:
Interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans was strongly sex biased
Why I risked prison to add a 'Losing Sound' to poker machines
Flavour Sensing in Utero and Emerging Discriminative Behaviours in the Human Fetus
https://www.sciencealert.com/venting-doesnt-reduce-anger-but-something-else-does-review-finds
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[00:00:00] Rod: Everybody knows the best way to get rid of anger is to vent. Let it all out. Rage. You know, cathart empty yourself of the the angers because anger in humans acts like steam. Building up in a boiler. We all know this. If you don't let it out, you might go boom. But naturally, if you want to do a controlled, deliberate release of your Ries, then it won't be as bad, and you'll definitely feel way better.
[00:00:23] So, you know, you vent and you rant, et cetera. But as you probably guessed by now, we're probably starting to suspect I'm talking about this because science has now decided to massacre this long-held truth using its so-called evidence. And I'm not gonna lie, finding this out made me pretty angry.
[00:00:52] Will: It is time for a little bit of science
[00:00:55] Rod: already.
[00:00:56] Will: I'm will grant an associate Professor of Science communication at the [00:01:00] Australian National University.
[00:01:01] Rod: I'm Rud Lambert's, a 30 year science communication veteran with the mind of a teenage. Boy
[00:01:06] Will: and as well as the science of venting. Yeah. We've also got a bit of fun with humans.
[00:01:11] Rod: And then we might as well have some fun with animals.
[00:01:13] Will: I've got some adorable for you.
[00:01:15] Rod: Oh. I'm gonna talk about how delightful AI can be as a business partner.
[00:01:19] Will: And then at the end I've got a call to action where you listener, you can solve the problems of the world just by clicking a link that I'm gonna give you.
[00:01:28] Rod: But when you deliver this call to action, I want everyone to stand. I don't care where you are. If you're driving and listening to this stand up anyway, you
[00:01:35] Will: should.
[00:01:35] Rod: If it's a call to action, you should be fully tensed.
[00:01:38] Will: I love a vent. I love a rant. I love wa
[00:01:41] Rod: Yeah,
[00:01:42] Will: sometimes. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes
[00:01:44] Rod: you not, not when it's other people's.
[00:01:45] Will: Well, no. So I occasionally get people to rant for a teaching exercise. You know, think of something that makes you angry. And, um, some people
[00:01:52] Rod: do they always choose you?
[00:01:55] Will: I hope they do this fucking class. I, I hope they do. No, I don't hope that, I [00:02:00] don't hope that, no, but I'm like. What makes me angry and it's like, oh, the person that swims in the wrong lane at the swimming pool.
[00:02:05] So you,
[00:02:06] Rod: why serious Fury?
[00:02:07] Will: I think you are more advanced in your
[00:02:10] Rod: Oh, I get angry about so much stuff.
[00:02:12] Will: Oh, I'm glad.
[00:02:12] Rod: So much stuff. I, I have a gift. It's one of many and I could share it with the world, but not today. Yeah. I love it too. I love ranting. I like, for me ranting, blowing off steam, et cetera feels so good.
[00:02:22] It's like that, uh, classic line. It's like a sneeze. Only better. It's just. Hm. You don't know that line?
[00:02:28] Will: I thought that line was about something else.
[00:02:30] Rod: It can be both.
[00:02:31] Will: Like a sneeze only. I mean, what could that possibly be
[00:02:35] Rod: if you could sneeze as we do?
[00:02:36] Will: Yeah.
[00:02:37] Rod: From lower down the body.
[00:02:38] Will: Oh, there you go.
[00:02:38] Rod: Its boys do, do that.
[00:02:40] So science's here to ruin that 2024 meta analysis. A review by a bunch of people at Ohio State University.
[00:02:46] Will: So they needed to do a meta-analysis on this.
[00:02:48] Rod: Oh yeah.
[00:02:48] Will: Like, like
[00:02:49] Rod: it's a big bastard. Too
[00:02:50] Will: big. This is, this is like, we're commissioning a big study. We need to know. Yeah. Finally for all time, does venting actually help?
[00:02:57] Rod: Yeah. Good on it. I mean, who can [00:03:00] blame it? I mean, look, the top level story is not only is there little evidence that venting helps, but in some cases it probably increases your anger. Does that see? Can you feel your rage rising?
[00:03:08] Will: No. Well,
[00:03:10] Rod: okay, disappointed.
[00:03:10] Will: You're dwelling at it. This is the problem. This is the problem.
[00:03:12] You go, ah, you've really fucked me off and now I'm gonna rant about, and it's like,
[00:03:16] Rod: that's not wrong. You're not wrong.
[00:03:17] Will: You know, I, I think the Buddha. Says maybe do something different. You know? What'll, what'll?
[00:03:21] Rod: Jesus said, show me your butt cheek. And the Buddhist said, eat one grain of rice.
[00:03:24] Will: Yeah. And I don't think either of them said, rant about it.
[00:03:27] Rod: No. And the paddle lizard
[00:03:28] Will: come to a little bit of science for your
[00:03:30] Rod: religious education.
[00:03:31] Will: Religious education.
[00:03:32] Rod: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scholastic knowledge of the epi epistles as written by the apostles. Did they write? I know the
[00:03:36] Will: epistles of the apostles. Yes.
[00:03:38] Rod: Yeah,
[00:03:38] Will: that's what they did.
[00:03:39] Rod: So yeah, they found that in some cases, you're venting, you're raging, et cetera.
[00:03:42] Could increase anger, make you worse. So as senior author and communication scientist, what, this is a great name. Brad Bushman, he said venting anger might sound like a good idea, but there's not a shred of scientific evidence to support the catharsis theory. Not a shred. How can he be against catharsis?
[00:03:58] Like, oh, come on.
[00:03:58] Will: But you're not getting catharsis. [00:04:00] That's the point. That's the point.
[00:04:01] Rod: Well, yeah. Or the, the method via which you allegedly get to catharsis. Yeah.
[00:04:06] Will: So how he's doing a meta analysis. This is all sorts of studies where people have already studied this.
[00:04:12] Rod: Yeah.
[00:04:12] Will: So.
[00:04:13] Rod: But they've not banged all the data together and looked at it on a different angle.
[00:04:16] So the first author is a person called Sophie Vic. She says, I wanted to debunk the whole theory of expressing anger as a way of coping with it.
[00:04:24] Will: I want to,
[00:04:24] Rod: I know.
[00:04:25] Will: Oh, there you go. That's the, it's
[00:04:26] Rod: a little preloaded.
[00:04:27] Will: Yeah, it is a bit
[00:04:27] Rod: We wanted to show, now it's gone to we that reducing arousal and actually more of the point, the physiological aspects of arousal is really important.
[00:04:35] Will: This is brought to you by Big Chill Out
[00:04:37] Rod: isn't a big chill.
[00:04:37] Will: Big Chill. Big Chill is not
[00:04:39] Rod: the movie we don't wanna get seen.
[00:04:40] Will: No, but they're saying calm down. Not like,
[00:04:42] Rod: but physiologically. So, I mean, this comes up, but the, the idea that people have not really focused a lot on the physiological, they focus a lot more on cognitive sides of anger.
[00:04:51] Will: Oh, okay.
[00:04:51] Rod: So the matter analysis, 154 studies on anger all. Congealed over 10,000 participants all up. Mm-hmm. Ranges of ages, [00:05:00] range of genders, range of cultures, ranges of your ethnicities. And apparently a lot of previous research focuses, as I said, more on cognitive rather than the physiological aspects of anger.
[00:05:08] So their analysis focuses on, they say both arousal increasing and arousal reducing activities. Now, for those of you who are like me, enlisting with a teenage boy brain, they don't mean arousal as in. Ity in the areas of the pants, they mean physiological, getting psyched up or psyched down physiologically.
[00:05:24] So things like this running and boxing, physical arousal goes up.
[00:05:27] Will: Yeah.
[00:05:28] Rod: Okay. Yoga and meditation, arousal goes down.
[00:05:30] Will: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:30] Rod: That's the bottom line.
[00:05:31] Will: Depends how you do yoga, man.
[00:05:32] Rod: Yeah. There is generalize. We'll get into details of yoga. Obviously there's about minute 48. I'm gonna read all the data tables.
[00:05:37] Jesus Christ. No, you're gonna love it. And you love it. This is very interesting data. So the findings say the key to curbing anger is to engage in activities that decrease your arousal level. So the bottom line was, rather than trying to vent anger, try to undermine it by turning down the heat. I know calming tactics better, but, but doesn't this go
[00:05:52] Will: against, I mean, there's been a bunch of studies that have shown that, you know, you hit your thumb with a hammer.
[00:05:56] Rod: Yeah.
[00:05:56] Will: That swearing and venting then. Can reduce the pain.
[00:05:59] Rod: [00:06:00] Pain. Yeah.
[00:06:00] Will: So there, you know,
[00:06:01] Rod: but anger doesn't ha, there's no pain in anger. Oh, it's completely different. So venting likely increases your arousal and that's therefore bad. You wanna take away anger's physiological fuel. Now this reminds me, gotta say, when I was reading this, I was like, this reminds me of think when I was a kid, we were told if you get a sunburn, the trick is after you've had the sunburn, get in the shower and turn it up to as hot as you can possibly stand.
[00:06:21] Will: I'm sorry,
[00:06:22] Rod: I'm sorry to take the sting out,
[00:06:23] Will: but seventies folk science. I
[00:06:25] Rod: know on the
[00:06:25] Will: sunburn
[00:06:25] Rod: I know
[00:06:26] Will: was not good. No one is like everyone seventies st out in Australia died of skin cancers
[00:06:31] Rod: We did.
[00:06:31] Will: You're all dead of skin cancer.
[00:06:32] Rod: No. Fourth degree burns takes
[00:06:34] Will: the skin out.
[00:06:35] Rod: Jesus take takes the St. Stink. So we'd get in the shower and we'd slowly turn it up and up and up and up as you come and you'd get outta the shower and go, I don't hurt as much.
[00:06:41] Which is probably 'cause you've just murdered all your nerve engines. Yeah, exactly. But it sounds like a similar thing. So I started thinking this. Venting your anger might be some version of that. You're actually putting more heat into your anger rather than taking it out. I'm starting to wonder if the, uh, sunburn thing is true now too.
[00:06:56] You still do it. It just struck me. I don't get sunburn now. I'm not an idiot. I can't feel it if I do. So [00:07:00] back to Bushman Bushman. He says certain physical activities that increase arousal may be good for your heart, but they're definitely not the best way to reduce your anger.
[00:07:07] Will: So going for a run good for your heart.
[00:07:09] Rod: Do you know what they actually said? One of the most arousal boosting activities that does not reduce anger particularly is jogging. Yeah. Jogging's particularly
[00:07:16] Will: bad. Yeah. I confess, I confess, there have been moments where I'm like, I'm gonna go for a run and uh, run. I'm like, now I've proved it.
[00:07:23] Rod: I wanna kill more people.
[00:07:24] Now, not only my family's dead, but those fuckers across the road as well. Jogging would make me angrier too, 'cause I hate jogging. Every time I do it, everything hurts. Things that aren't even part of my body start hurting when I try and jog. I can sprint, I can sit, I can row, you
[00:07:37] Will: can sprint.
[00:07:37] Rod: Oh yeah. Fucking fast.
[00:07:38] Will: I need to see this.
[00:07:39] Rod: Only once though. I
[00:07:40] Will: will pay some money to see this.
[00:07:42] Rod: How much
[00:07:43] Will: you don't know yet?
[00:07:44] Rod: How much? 'cause the knee surgery afterwards,
[00:07:46] Will: I can't pay for that.
[00:07:47] Rod: This a fight with my wife. I'm not fight, get at least
[00:07:48] Will: 40 bucks.
[00:07:49] Rod: My wife and I have a disagreement. She thinks she's positive. She's faster than me over the short distance.
[00:07:53] And I'm like,
[00:07:53] Will: what? Why is this? What?
[00:07:54] Rod: There's no way. There's no way you are. I'm fucking fast.
[00:07:56] Will: I love this. Like guys inherently go, I'm faster than you. I'm
[00:07:58] Rod: faster than you.
[00:07:59] Will: I'm [00:08:00] faster than
[00:08:00] you.
[00:08:00] Rod: Actually it's 400 meters. I said no, I couldn't even walk 500 meters. But if we're talking short distance. I totally d
[00:08:05] Will: Okay.
[00:08:06] Okay. Listeners, I think at some point we need to crowdfund seeing how fast Rod can run against his wife,
[00:08:11] Rod: but the crowdfunding must also include
[00:08:14] Will: Yeah, knee surgery. Knee surgery. That's the point we've gotta get to knee surgery.
[00:08:16] Rod: Yeah, we've gotta get to knee and, and damn good Knee surgery. A
[00:08:18] Will: hundred meters, a hundred meters.
[00:08:19] Rod: Fuck no. The classic
[00:08:20] Will: dash
[00:08:21] Rod: 40,
[00:08:21] Will: 40, 40. Talking about
[00:08:22] Rod: I'm old. I'm old.
[00:08:24] Will: Alright. And you too can establish the distance, but uh,
[00:08:27] Rod: what's even worse is not only will I be an absolute agony if she wins. Then I'm gonna be a cripple who's alone.
[00:08:33] Will: I am. I am betting so much money that she will win.
[00:08:37] Rod: No, she's slow. Look at her.
[00:08:39] So anyway, Vic, the lead author says, it was really interesting to see that progressive muscle relaxation and just straight up relaxation in general, probably as effective as mindfulness and meditation. I'm like, well, yeah, some yoga can be more arousing, as you pointed out. So when you do your hot, let's fight with knives.
[00:08:54] Yoga, more arousing.
[00:08:56] Will: Okay.
[00:08:56] Rod: Sitting around having a quiet breath. Lesser rails, calming activities, reduced [00:09:00] anger, whether is in the lab or in the wild. Doesn't matter on the demographics. So slow flow, yoga, mindfulness, progressive muscle relaxation, dia matic breathing, de aromatic breathing and taking time out.
[00:09:12] Will: Okay,
[00:09:13] Rod: so you imagine that you get furious, get in the corner and count to 10. Okay?
[00:09:15] Will: Okay,
[00:09:15] Rod: so have you tried count 10? That makes me angrier too. I get stuck at eight because I'm so angry. I can't even remember what comes next.
[00:09:20] Will: No, I can get through that.
[00:09:22] Rod: No,
[00:09:22] Will: no, but okay. Okay. Gimme this then. Gimme this then.
[00:09:25] Yeah. So science in its best possible method here has, has congealed all the data on all the studies. Mm-hmm. To show that catharsis doesn't happen, that venting doesn't help you. Yeah, and I can totally bel it's not reducing your physiological sign of anger. And maybe it's not doing things on the cognitive level.
[00:09:40] Why do people do it and why is there such a, it's a bias towards it or a, or a rec. So it's a good
[00:09:47] Rod: question,
[00:09:47] Will: isn't it? Is science wrong here or is something else going on?
[00:09:50] Rod: I think, and it could be both and I think we love metaphors and taking the heat out kind of makes sense. Like you're building up, you're angry and think that pressure thing, so blowing it out makes sense.
[00:09:58] Will: I think it's actually people don't wanna be not [00:10:00] angry. Agree. I think pe I think these agree. These researchers have got it completely wrong. Yeah. They're thinking, they're thinking Venting is a way of getting rid of the anger instead, venting is about spreading the anger. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:09] Rod: This
[00:10:09] Will: is just
[00:10:09] Rod: rubbing it all over your body and loving it even more.
[00:10:11] Will: Exactly.
[00:10:12] Rod: I agree.
[00:10:12] Will: Exactly. No and juicy, delicious anger to quote Australia. I think this is a bluey episode and it's just one of those ones where I know that,
[00:10:19] Rod: is this the racist one or the sexist one or the drug? Uh, positive one.
[00:10:23] Will: I dunno. I dunno which one this is. I know that, uh, you may not be up with Bluey.
[00:10:26] It's Australia's but the world's favorite, um, cartoon dog based show. Anyway, there's a great moment where the dad says to the toddler, one of the toddler, are you sure you don't just want to be angry? I think that there are absolutely times, and this is what venting is. It's like no, anger is a gift. I'm taking pleasure.
[00:10:43] The right kind
[00:10:43] Rod: of anger is awesome. I've become more eloquent and become much more abusive. But in a very strong, you turn into
[00:10:48] Will: some sort of anti Buddha. You're like,
[00:10:50] Rod: I do, I do. And I'm like, editor date. But there's a curve ball. They also say they, they and the finish, like there's ball sports and other physical activities that involve.
[00:10:58] Play can reduce [00:11:00] arousal.
[00:11:00] Will: Yeah. Okay,
[00:11:00] Rod: so play.
[00:11:01] Will: Yeah,
[00:11:02] Rod: so you can reduce arousal during this physical exertion if it's fun. Which brings to mind a study I talked at you about, I think quite a long time ago on the effect of heavy metal music on people. And at first they were saying, you metalheads claim you listen to metal and it relaxes you.
[00:11:15] That's bullshit. We tested it. We took people who like metal, hate metal and don't care. And it turns out people who like metal when they listen to it do find it relaxing. And people who don't. Don't. I'm shocked.
[00:11:25] Will: Thanks science.
[00:11:26] Rod: Yeah, I know, but I'm thinking this is not dissimilar. So if it's fun, whatever fun is I, I
[00:11:30] Will: think the point
[00:11:31] Rod: that think that might be better,
[00:11:32] Will: I think these researchers have missed the point.
[00:11:33] Point of venting is
[00:11:34] Rod: publishing is the point.
[00:11:35] Will: Yes, that's true. But the point of venting is not to relax. The point of venting is to do something vastly different.
[00:11:41] Rod: I love it. I love event. I don't care science. Fuck you. I love it. Anyway, I'm gonna keep venting and raging until the day I croak.
[00:11:48] Will: So Rod, I don't want to stereotype your ethnicity, but I'm looking at you right now and I
[00:11:54] Rod: feel seen,
[00:11:54] Will: and we know that there are populations of people around the world
[00:11:58] Rod: Yep.
[00:11:58] Will: Who have more
[00:11:59] Rod: [00:12:00] magnificence
[00:12:00] Will: or less. Yes. Magnificence could be part of it. Neandertal, DNA. Most of the world has something like one to 2% Neandertal, DNA. How do we get Neandertal DNA in us? Well,
[00:12:10] Rod: oh, I think we know
[00:12:12] Will: by the traditional methods. Neandertals and uh, what
[00:12:15] Rod: smoothies,
[00:12:16] Will: what I'm gonna call humans, homo sapiens.
[00:12:18] Us You know the regular humans.
[00:12:20] Rod: You mean Sapiens? Sapiens?
[00:12:21] Will: Yeah. 'cause neandertals are humans as well. They're just different. Oh,
[00:12:23] Rod: you're so woke.
[00:12:24] Will: I know. I'm just saying. But I'm gonna call us humans and them neandertals anyway, they made babies together.
[00:12:28] Rod: Yeah. I don't know if I heard this right, but didn't the Sapien sapiens ladies kind of go, I like me a little Neanderthal.
[00:12:34] Will: Well,
[00:12:35] Rod: Tal,
[00:12:35] Will: here's what I got for you.
[00:12:37] Rod: Is that true?
[00:12:37] Will: Here's what I've got for you. No. So some new research that's just published in science, which is as August as it can get
[00:12:44] Rod: it, is,
[00:12:44] Will: has just proposed a. Twist in this baby making. Basically they've looked at human DNA from around the world. Yeah. And with that, you can map where the Neandertal DNA is.
[00:12:54] And by going back to the Sub-Saharan African populations, you can sort of take out the Neandertal DNA and [00:13:00] say, you know, where there's more, where there's less. There's spots in the human chromosome where there's more, and there's spots where there's less. In particular, they noted what they called Neanderthal deserts.
[00:13:11] There's not much Neanderthal DNA in the X chromosome human X chromosome, of
[00:13:15] Rod: course.
[00:13:15] Will: And then they found Oasis in the opposite. So as you suspected, as you suspected, Neanderthal human baby making was not an equal affair. To, you know, spread this around. It was much more human, women liking a bit of, well, human women.
[00:13:33] Yeah.
[00:13:33] Rod: Let me
[00:13:33] Will: human, sorry. This is, this is my question and, and this is for you to, let's, let's go for some explanation as a sec. Human, human, women, homo sapiens, women and neandertal men. Vastly more than human or homo sapiens. Men and Neal women. So we've got a coupling that happened a lot. The neandertal men, the human women.
[00:13:50] Mm-hmm. That happened a lot. And I know
[00:13:52] Rod: what it is,
[00:13:53] Will: so
[00:13:54] Rod: I know what it is.
[00:13:55] Will: So tell me, tell me what have, what have we got going on here that either the human women are [00:14:00] looking for, or,
[00:14:01] Rod: well, no, I don't think
[00:14:02] Will: it's, the human men are not finding,
[00:14:04] Rod: it's actually that neandertal women look shit in skirts and they cannot work in heels.
[00:14:09] Will: Is that, is that what,
[00:14:10] Rod: and so they're less attractive.
[00:14:11] Will: It's so, it's a skirts and heels.
[00:14:12] Rod: It's a skirts and heels thing. So they look at the, the Neanderthal women and they're like, yeah, not as hot as a human lady.
[00:14:17] Will: Well, I think we're just respectful of our,
[00:14:19] Rod: yeah, I mean, look, obviously it's hard not to assume that the Neanderthals who are, you know.
[00:14:23] Maybe unfairly renowned for being a little bit more brutish. May have been,
[00:14:27] Will: I dunno how brutish they actually were.
[00:14:29] Rod: Oh, everyone knows. Terrible.
[00:14:30] Will: I mean, that, that terrible is so much of a stereotype. Like it goes back to when their first skulls were found. They've got a big brow and stuff like that. So,
[00:14:35] Rod: well as someone who's, what am i, 83%?
[00:14:37] Neal, I don't mind being characterized that way. Some of my bread.
[00:14:40] Will: So maybe the human women are looking at you going, it's got a bit of,
[00:14:43] Rod: please don't hurt me.
[00:14:44] Will: Little bit of neandertal in there.
[00:14:45] Rod: Please don't hurt
[00:14:46] me.
[00:14:46] Will: I'm looking for that. I'm looking for that.
[00:14:48] Rod: Or, uh, if, if I was 89% neandertal, I might be like.
[00:14:52] Chu lady, what take,
[00:14:53] Will: so there's one version I saw was men prefer blondes, women prefer Neanderthals. Uh, I dunno.
[00:14:59] Rod: I [00:15:00] think if I'm evidence of the neanderthal, although you can't see this in this picture, I am basically genetically blonde slash ginga, so,
[00:15:06] Will: well, you've got other in there as well. So you've got some of the human women in there, two
[00:15:10] Rod: plus other
[00:15:10] Will: human women and you've got some Neanderthal,
[00:15:13] Rod: so nationality, other race.
[00:15:15] Yes.
[00:15:16] Will: But, but I mean it's really strange to see that there is a bias in this kind of thing. 'cause you imagine that, you know, amongst other sorts of coupling there's going to be a sort of randomization,
[00:15:25] Rod: like like your horse and your mule. Your donkey to get your mule.
[00:15:28] Will: I dunno about that. Very similar. I don't know about that.
[00:15:31] Rod: Your giraffe and your rhino, I don't know. They do, they. Jura. Probably more like with antelopes or something. There's gotta be some hybrid of that.
[00:15:39] Will: It'd be hard to hybrid. I think the problem is that
[00:15:41] Rod: depends which one's the man, which one's the female. Yeah, of course you're talking biomechanics
[00:15:43] Will: maybe. Maybe that's what it is.
[00:15:44] It's a biomechanics thing. Maybe. Maybe Neanderthals. There was something that uh, meant human boys couldn't do it with the Neanderthal ladies.
[00:15:52] Rod: Neanderthal ladies probably. Some serious appetites that mere humans could not meet.
[00:15:57] Will: Maybe that's it. Maybe maybe [00:16:00] neandertal men. The
[00:16:00] Rod: most common
[00:16:01] Will: question, maybe neandertal men were a little bit, uh, well,
[00:16:04] Rod: the most common question asked by a Neander Neal woman, when having sex with a a sapian man is.
[00:16:10] Are you in yet? To which the man replies I've told you for the fourth time. Yes, and I have been for an hour, so there
[00:16:19] Will: you go. That might be the biggest problem. They go men, you can feel happy about that. Women, you can feel happy about that too. I don't know. Let's all be happy. Let's all be happy.
[00:16:24] Rod: Bizarre.
[00:16:28] Will: I was reading this article about, you know, kids and picky eating and I was like, oh, what are you gonna say? You know? You know. And anyway, linked to this point that said, oh, we've now known that kids respond to bitter and and Sweet. Oh yeah, yeah. From a very early age.
[00:16:42] Rod: Can I, before you tell me that. Picky Eating in kids is one thing.
[00:16:45] I've got a friend and his wife, they're picky grownups.
[00:16:48] Will: Yeah, well they're not grownups.
[00:16:49] Rod: It's annoying though. Like you go to the house and you're like, oh, I'll bring the chips. And every time, 'cause I go there, maybe once a month, I get to the chip aisle and I stare at the chip pile and I go, I'll just grab the fuck.
[00:16:58] I've forgotten who hates what.
[00:16:59] Will: Ah.
[00:16:59] Rod: [00:17:00] One hates solving. The other
[00:17:01] Will: one wants to marry. No, I know that. I know that one definition of grownup is that you're allowed to vote. Another definition is that you're allowed to have sex. Another definition is that you're allowed to kill for your country. There's multiple definitions.
[00:17:11] Some of them are unfair to different types of people.
[00:17:13] Rod: Sure.
[00:17:13] Will: But
[00:17:14] Rod: picky eating amongst grownups, I'm like, get the fuck over it.
[00:17:16] Will: We love you listener. If you're, unless
[00:17:17] Rod: it's against your religion or, or it makes you sick.
[00:17:20] Will: Sure. No, those just eat it. But also, if it's something that is just like a normal thing, come down, I'm
[00:17:25] Rod: not picking on vegans out there if there are any listening.
[00:17:27] Will: No, no. If there's a reason for it,
[00:17:28] Rod: if there are any
[00:17:29] Will: listening, we love you. No. If there's been ethical reason. But if it's just wanna like it,
[00:17:33] Rod: like it, like I had a friend when I was a kid who's like, oh, we're gonna have, you know, canned fruit and ice cream for dessert. It was the seventies. And he goes, oh, is it IXL?
[00:17:41] And we're like, what? And he's talking about the brand of the fruit. And mum's like, I don't know. He goes, I only like IXL pears. What Fuck you talking about? It's canned fruit. Fucking canned fruit.
[00:17:51] Will: But it's the seventies in Australia it was IXL.
[00:17:53] Rod: It might've been,
[00:17:54] Will: I'm sorry. But there the other brands weren't.
[00:17:56] Any other brands.
[00:17:56] Rod: Kloden?
[00:17:57] Will: No Nolo didn't, didn't fell apart in the furnace. Thirties, [00:18:00] spiff
[00:18:00] Rod: and apricots.
[00:18:01] Will: That was, that was definitely gone by the 19 end of the 19th century. Like no. Fuck.
[00:18:04] Rod: Canned apricots are terrible though. I don't care what brand. Anyway, sorry. Picky eaters.
[00:18:11] Will: Researchers have previously shown that, um, you know, kids, babies show preferences from a very young age. Yeah.
[00:18:17] Rod: Right.
[00:18:18] Will: Uh, for sweetened sour and bitter and things like that. Yeah. You can, you can respond to it.
[00:18:21] Rod: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:21] Will: Researcher just said, no, let's go further back. Let's go all the way
[00:18:25] Rod: before the big bang.
[00:18:26] Will: Before the big bang. That is putting a baby out of the vagina. I
[00:18:30] Rod: didn't mean that bang, but I like where you went with
[00:18:31] Will: it. It's a big bang. No, no. Not back before the earlier Big
[00:18:34] Rod: bang. That's what I meant. I didn't mean the intercourse. I was being astronomical.
[00:18:37] Will: No, it's definitely gotta be after intercourse.
[00:18:38] Yeah. I don't think you can test pre sperm for picky eating. I think
[00:18:42] Rod: so. When you do the pregnancy test, when the lady piddles on the stick, it goes definitely pregnant and hates cauliflower.
[00:18:48] Will: I think that would be wild. I think
[00:18:51] Rod: that even if it's not true, just throw it in there. Wild lighten the moment.
[00:18:54] Will: So I'm gonna read from the abstract of this paper here.
[00:18:57] We report the first direct evidence of [00:19:00] human fetal responsiveness
[00:19:01] Rod: fetal
[00:19:02] Will: to flavors. So
[00:19:03] Rod: fetal.
[00:19:04] Will: So they got pregnant women at sort of late stage pregnancy that we're talking
[00:19:08] Rod: 16, 17 months.
[00:19:10] Will: Not that late. Not that late. We're, we're up in the 36 weeks sort of area. So the, the baby is quite developed.
[00:19:17] Rod: Yeah.
[00:19:17] Will: They get to 40 is the, is the end goal.
[00:19:18] Rod: They get to 40.
[00:19:19] Will: 40 is the end goal
[00:19:20] Rod: here. Right.
[00:19:20] Will: Okay. 36 is, you know, you got somewhat of a baby. It's what you
[00:19:24] Rod: call viable, right?
[00:19:25] Will: Yeah, definitely. Definitely in the viable category. Yeah. But they would give the mothers a single dose capsule. This is so science
[00:19:31] Rod: Ooh.
[00:19:31] Will: Of one of two things. One is a carrot capsule.
[00:19:34] Rod: Or a carrot.
[00:19:35] Will: No, you gotta give 'em a carrot capsule, this fucking carrot. Or the other one is a kale capsule.
[00:19:40] Rod: These are not hugely distinct, like an ice cream capsule and a kale capsule.
[00:19:44] Will: Both of these come from the vegetable aisle. Yes, yes
[00:19:47] Rod: they do.
[00:19:47] Will: But um, carrots are quite sweet.
[00:19:49] Rod: They are. And kale is not.
[00:19:50] Will: Kale. Kale is known for its bitterness and also known that kids respond to the bitterness of it.
[00:19:56] Rod: Yes.
[00:19:56] Will: But anyway, what they've got, what they've then done, they've got
[00:19:58] Rod: capsule
[00:19:59] Will: [00:20:00] 35 women would eat the carrot capsule.
[00:20:03] Rod: Eat, swallow.
[00:20:05] Will: Yeah, that's true. That's true. Because
[00:20:06] Rod: if you're chewing on a capsule, you've got other issues.
[00:20:08] Will: And then they'd go for an ultrasound and they've got ultrasounds here of the baby's response. This is in uterus to the carrot and to the kale. And I've just gotta show you these things 'cause Okay, so the, the bottom one, this is the baby before it's eaten the carrot. Yeah. And then after it's totally smiling.
[00:20:23] Rod: That is
[00:20:23] Will: creepy. That's horror.
[00:20:24] Rod: That is a smile. But it's horror movie.
[00:20:25] Will: It's, and this is the kale where it's like, ah, normal. It's like, ah, this is gross.
[00:20:30] Rod: Is that kid stabbing itself? Yep. That is, was it qto in, um, the original, uh, that movie on Mars with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Total recall. Qto The Little Mutant.
[00:20:43] That's what that baby looks like. Look it up. Look it up. Young people.
[00:20:45] Will: I, I dunno. I dunno.
[00:20:47] Rod: Anyway, yes, it looks like to me, carrot, yes. Kale. No,
[00:20:50] Will: but it's just so cute. Like these, these people are like, can we make the little baby inside the fetus? Sorry. Still inside a 36 week old can we give it a carrot capsule and the little babies are [00:21:00] going, oh, this is great.
[00:21:01] They're having a big old smile. I do like
[00:21:03] Rod: the idea of experimenting on the unborn. I do like that.
[00:21:05] Will: And statistically significant, the kale eating ba mothers, uh, the babies would go, don't like it. And the. Carrot, like the character, they're like, this is great. Gimme more. I'm just like, definite. Why?
[00:21:17] Rod: Why capsule it?
[00:21:18] Why capsule?
[00:21:19] Will: I don't look, I think they were just trying to keep the, the amounts consistent and to you. Right. But I mean, that
[00:21:25] Rod: seems science.
[00:21:25] Will: So, so there, there is absolutely an evolutionary reason that that young kids, babies would develop responses to sweet and, and bitter. So sweet is likely to be, um, nutritious.
[00:21:35] Like high calorie, high, high energy.
[00:21:37] Rod: Yeah,
[00:21:37] Will: yeah, yeah. Bitter is. Potentially poisonous so you can understand that instinctively, potentially coated into DNA for a long time. It's there, but to have evidence before anyone has done any sort of training, any sort of you like carrot or anything like that in, in the womb, that's gotta do more in the womb.
[00:21:54] The little babies are smiling's excellent when they get the carrot.
[00:21:57] Rod: No, I mean look, a smiling fetus done via [00:22:00] whatever kind of technology that picture is taken with. Creep as fuck. But it's definitely smiling. At least.
[00:22:04] Will: It's definitely smiling.
[00:22:05] Rod: Yeah.
[00:22:05] Will: It's
[00:22:05] Rod: definitely a smile.
[00:22:06] Will: Like they, it's a scary smile. They just, well, I'll, I'll describe.
[00:22:08] They used lip corner puller, laughter faced gestalt, and more frequently where fetus is exposed to kale flavor, showed upper lip razor, lower lip depressor, lip stretch lip press. They, they had a whole description of these things. Of course they did. Broke it down to a whole bunch of, they different did. So I think they got a facial analysis expert and a, and a flavor expert of that
[00:22:26] Rod: because saying it smiled, it frowned.
[00:22:29] Not good enough.
[00:22:29] Will: I think we're able to see it's a smile.
[00:22:31] Rod: You can, it's definitely smiling
[00:22:33] Will: and
[00:22:33] Rod: frowning or carving. Those two emotions are very distinctly rep.
[00:22:38] Will: I just
[00:22:38] Rod: represented.
[00:22:39] Will: I just think anytime you have, and I'm not picking on you for being a picky eater, but as an adult now, and you have something, I don't like that.
[00:22:46] Just think you've been doing that.
[00:22:47] Rod: You fucking baby
[00:22:48] Will: you. You. Well, no. Yes, there's that fetus. But you've been doing that since before you were born. You've been going, Ooh, grows.
[00:22:54] Rod: Oh, I wanna see it done with more like, I want, you know, those classic, uh, more
[00:22:58] Will: complex flavors.
[00:22:59] Rod: Yeah, well just even like [00:23:00] the YouTube videos of, you know, kids eating a lemon for the first time
[00:23:03] Will: Oh.
[00:23:03] Rod: And stuff like that. So I'd like to see lemon capsules.
[00:23:06] Will: Ah, right.
[00:23:06] Rod: Wasabi. If you
[00:23:07] Will: wanna get one of these, one of those hot wings competitions.
[00:23:09] Rod: I do.
[00:23:09] Will: How hot can you eat?
[00:23:11] Rod: What do you call it? Your ghost peppers.
[00:23:12] Will: That's that. That is fundable tv right there. You get an ultrasound and you get a mother that is,
[00:23:18] Rod: uh, can imagine pitching that we're gonna do in utero experiments.
[00:23:22] It's gonna be great.
[00:23:23] Will: See? See how good the hot wings go.
[00:23:25] Rod: I know someone in reality tv. I'm gonna pitch that.
[00:23:30] Will: Hey, I've got a call to action for you.
[00:23:32] Rod: For me. Just me.
[00:23:33] Will: No, no, for, thank God for listeners for you, what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna talk about a, a concept, and then I'm gonna play you a nice video that just gives you a little bit of, and then, I don't know, I'd like you to go click on a petition because I think this is just one of those nice little behavioral interventions.
[00:23:47] That the world needs.
[00:23:48] Rod: Is it to save the Jamison Quick Splash Pool? It's in Canberra.
[00:23:53] Will: Alright, so I'll read, I'll read the story that comes from uh, Neil Walsh. So Neil Walsh, he tell, he tells a story like [00:24:00] this. He was at a local pub. He's having to catch up with a bunch of old school friends and a bunch of them.
[00:24:04] I think he's a little bit older. A bunch of them love to play the pokies.
[00:24:08] Rod: Some people do.
[00:24:09] Will: People do.
[00:24:09] Rod: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:10] Will: But while he's standing there in the pokey room, you know, twiddling his thumbs, I realized that the room was full of winning sounds. Uh, you know, you hear the sound? Yeah.
[00:24:18] Rod: Do they get a high pitched happy, happy noise?
[00:24:20] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:21] Will: But nothing of the losing sound.
[00:24:23] Rod: What? What are they?
[00:24:25] Will: Well, no, no. Sound, the sound just of the machine continuing to go. And so Neil Walsh and, and hat's off here, he said, you know, this is not right. So. He decided to build a machine. That sounds a little bit different now. I'm gonna play this video.
[00:24:39] Pokies Voiceover: Poker machines are highly addictive. Aussies lose 12 billion a year on them, and it's no wonder when a win sounds like
[00:24:53] and a loss Sounds like.
[00:24:59] Did [00:25:00] you know that there's no losing sounds in a poker machine? No. Interesting. I haven't really noticed, no, I dunno. I haven't actually noticed Introducing the losing sound, a project to make pokies less addictive. So anything that helps create a sense of anticipation and excitement means dope, means firing in the brain, which adds to the addictive potential something has.
[00:25:23] If we were to change when the sounds occur and the types of sounds that were to happen as well, then the combination of that could potentially have quite a big impact on people's play. There are actually no losing sounds in poker machines. So we created a losing sound and we based it on psychology.
[00:25:39] Studies show that a descending minor key heightens our knees in people, which is why we took inspiration from video games, especially the sound you hear when you die.
[00:25:52] Then we programmed it into this machine. Making it the first poke machine ever with a losing sound.[00:26:00]
[00:26:02] The following test uses real players who have agreed to try out our machines without knowing the changes. Come on. Here we go. Here we go. Big one. Come on.
[00:26:42] I didn't like. The extra noises, the losing noises, I felt like I could have hit collect and moved away. Every time the noise comes up, I'd be like, oh my God, I'm losing it. And I felt like stopping.
[00:26:52] If you hear more losing than winning, it's just reinforcing that this probably isn't a good idea.
[00:26:58] In this small scale test, [00:27:00] all participants became aware of their losses and their desire to play halved.
[00:27:04] If we had things like losing sounds that reduced overall gambling participation, uh, we'd be able to change the culture of gambling that we have in this country. So if we celebrate a win,
[00:27:22] it's only fair that we hear a loss.
[00:27:26] Will: So.
[00:27:27] Rod: Great idea.
[00:27:28] Will: I just, I've just gotta say, it's just such a beautiful use of really clear Yeah. Psychology and music there. Yeah. Yeah. But also behavioral cues that will help us, and it's an intervention that we could put in this, I gotta, I gotta confess, it's an evil industry.
[00:27:44] Rod: You're confessing that I. Finally you're facing it.
[00:27:47] Will: So if you are interested, listener in the show notes, there is a link to the petition.
[00:27:52] Rod: Yeah.
[00:27:52] Will: What the, the people behind this would like is for this to be forced into all poking machines. Ooh. They're fight now. I [00:28:00] don't, I don't imagine that is easy fight. I don't imagine that is easy, but it shifts the ground from, you know, banning them outright or, you know, moving them to different places or something.
[00:28:09] It's just like, what if, what if we could use behavioral cues for good in this industry?
[00:28:13] Rod: Let's, let's make it less scientific. Just make them honest. Uh, like equal time for honesty,
[00:28:17] Will: equal time.
[00:28:18] Rod: Like the honesty in that video with the woman who was playing it with a big Ry in her hand. Fucking love that they focused in on her having a ciggy while she's playing.
[00:28:25] I'm like, that's old school and
[00:28:26] Will: excellent. Well, you know, you know,
[00:28:28] Rod: oh, you can't play one with that without smoking.
[00:28:30] Will: But I, but I spoke to you years ago about this episode. Many, many moons ago Australia. It's
[00:28:34] Rod: unlikely I remember it,
[00:28:35] Will: but, but, but here's the one that you probably do remember. Yeah. Australians gamble and lose more than any other country.
[00:28:41] Oh yeah. I do remember, like, we are, we are shit at bribery, but fucking great. At uh, losing money
[00:28:46] Rod: to gambling,
[00:28:47] Will: losing money and gambling it, it is double. Any other country like Singapore, you are number two. We love you Singapore. You are number two, but we are double you in losing. And so
[00:28:57] Rod: that works so well though, like listening to that, every time I heard that [00:29:00] sound I was like, I don't feel happy.
[00:29:03] So when they had it on fast, repeat, I didn't feel good.
[00:29:06] Will: Ah. Just such a great use of great uses, genius of
[00:29:09] Rod: psychology's genius. That is genius
[00:29:10] Will: and a great use of like, yeah,
[00:29:12] Rod: and the simplicity that is beautifully simple. That shows really effective science. I'm, I'm assuming, doesn't have to be complicated at all.
[00:29:20] At
[00:29:20] Will: all. Doesn't have to be complicated at all. It doesn't have to be complicated, and it could absolutely lead to impacts, so it's
[00:29:26] Rod: fabulous.
[00:29:28] Will: Go and have a go at that petition. Yeah. You have just listened to your little bit of science. Yep. Um, if you don't wanna listen, but you wanna watch, you know what the bonus prize you get, you get the welcome to, what do you call it?
[00:29:40] The calf gun show?
[00:29:41] Rod: The, the calf cannon
[00:29:42] Will: or, or, or the world's Most up short podcast.
[00:29:45] Rod: Yeah. Yeah. We've kept our legs crossed. Well, I have will's much less than new, but he has a tan.
[00:29:52] Will: I don't know if I'm a tan. It's just.
[00:29:53] Rod: If you enjoyed what you heard, you should give us 25 stars. If you didn't enjoy it, keep it to yourself.
[00:29:58] No one needs to know that,
[00:29:59] Will: or
[00:29:59] Rod: no. Keep the world [00:30:00] positive.
[00:30:00] Will: Hate. Listen.
[00:30:01] Rod: Or hate Listen. That's true, and if you wanna send us emails with all kinds of stuff, it's cheers at a little bit of science.com au slash Jesus.
