Besides unnecessary wars, assassinations and scandalous affairs, what comes to mind when you think about American presidents? The Oval Office, the Star-Spangled Banner, Air Force One, the official military salute… and of course golf.
With the exception of three presidents (Hoover, Truman and Carter), golf has been the presidential sport of choice throughout the 20th and 21st centuries. While Hoover avoided golf during the great depression (a bit rude while everyone was starving), others like Woodrow Wilson were fanatics, playing over 1600 rounds during his presidency.
But when it comes to golf, there’s one President who brings a flair of colour to the green - and we’re not talking about the colour of his polo shirt. This president is renowned less for his golfing prowess and more for his boastful claims of golf accolades and notorious cheating habits. None other than Donald Trump.
Now Trump was known to be quite the sportsman in his younger years but is he really better at golf than Jack Nicklaus, one of the best golfers ever? Trump claims to have a handicap of 2.8 (the closer to zero the better) while Nicklaus was at 3.5 at Trump’s age. This is where it starts to get a little bewildering.
See, Trump makes no apologies for cheating in a game of golf. So much so that Rick Reilly wrote a book about it called Commander in Cheat. Trump has openly cheated against many opponents, including professional golfers like Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus himself - but no one says anything about it.
Trump will happily kick a ball closer to the hole (that’s not allowed), throw a ball out of the rough (also not allowed), heck, he’s even stolen a ball from a kid and declared himself the winner. He’s also partial to claiming a gimme (a putt so short that it is essentially unmissable and automatically counted). But instead of the ball being only a few inches from the hole, Trump claims the gimme when he’s still chipping in from the fairway.
In the game of golf, a mulligan is a second chance shot when a golfer has hit a poor tee that they would rather forget. Trump claims these a lot… especially when he drives the ball straight into the pond.
So how has Trump won 23 club championships? That’s a heck of a lot. It’s quite simple really... He owns the golf course, owns the club, cheats his way through a game and then presents the trophy to himself. He’s openly stated that whenever he opens a new golf course, he plays the official opening round and then just calls that the first club championship. He’s even “won” a championship by playing a round on a different golf course and calling in his score.
Well, that’s one way to do it.
The real question is, however, why? Why the heck does he cheat? Why does he not seem to care that people know he’s cheating? And why doesn’t anyone say anything?
The thing is, Trump has always been like this. He's always told people that no one can beat him, that he's the best of the rich guys. Trump makes it so he always wins, even if he loses. While researching for his book, Reilly spoke to a psychiatrist at Harvard who described Trump’s behaviour as narcissism (no arguments here). He just can't handle the idea of not being number one, so he'll make up anything to be the top dog.
In terms of people being complicit with his ludicrous behaviour, well we suppose they want to keep their jobs. Stay quiet and avoid being fired. And it all comes back to the Trump phenomenon. Maybe it's not just about winning but about proving that he operates beyond conventional boundaries. And let’s face it, people want a Trump story. And he’s giving it to them, loud and proud.
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[00:00:00] Will: So, a little while ago, a president guy named Donald Trump went on his social media network, Truth Social, and he socialed, or truthed? But anyway, he went on and said it is my great honor to be at Trump international golf club in West Palm beach tonight awards night to receive the club championship trophy and the senior club championship trophy. I won both.
[00:00:28] Rod: What an honor. He's right. What an honor. I imagine actually saying that it's a great honor to be at my house where I'm giving me an award to me.
[00:00:40] Will: Look, as you can guess, a bunch of people may have laughed and said, okay, buddy, you won your own golf tournament? Yeah. Congratulations. Like there's a great video of Jon Stewart.
[00:00:53] Rod: Did anyone else play? it's hard to say, just Eric and DJ jr?
[00:00:57] Will: Well, look, there's a lot of people out there who say, yeah, you won your own tournament. This just proves yet again, that you're a big stinky cheat, but it's got me thinking, this got me thinking why does Trump want to cheat at golf?
[00:01:29] Welcome, to the Wholesome Show!
[00:01:33] Rod: The podcast in which, two academics, knock off early, grab a beer, and dive down the rabbit hole.
[00:01:40] Will: Oh my god. I'm Will Grant.
[00:01:42] Rod: I'm Rod Lamberts, and I play lead guitar in that new song
[00:01:44] Will: in this? You play the lead guitar?
[00:01:46] Rod: I'm the lead guitar. All the guitar you can hear in that is me
[00:01:48] Will: Yeah, true all of the euphonium and sousaphone as well.
[00:01:51] Rod: You're normally oboe I just like licking the reed
[00:01:56] Will: Just like licking the reed?
[00:01:57] Rod: Didn't you know that you like clarinet? I learned clarinet briefly and before you play it you gotta Moisten the reed and you basically gotta fellate the head of the clarinet and then you can play it properly.
[00:02:06] Will: You do! You do!
[00:02:07] Rod: They don't call it fellatio though for some obscure reason.
[00:02:14] Will: Not obscure. Oh my God. Oh my God. So look, that's the thing about American presidents in golf. They love it. They love it. They've played. Not all of them but I had a look and the 20th century and 21st century presidents, all of them have played a lot except for three.
[00:02:32] Herbert Hoover. He was president in depression, and he thought that's not cool to
[00:02:36] Rod: And you can't play golf in high heels.
[00:02:38] Will: No, that's J. Edgar Hoover. That's J that's a different guy. That's a different guy. I mean, he might have worn high heels, I don't know. You're confusing the Hoovers.
[00:02:44] Rod: Which one's the dad?
[00:02:45] Will: I don't think it's father son. I think it's brother from another mother. I've got two Hoovers around then. No, but different people. Herbert Hoover was president in depression. He was like, no it's a little bit rude to play it then. Harry Truman and Jimmy Carter were like, no, I don't like it. Every other president is like, I like it and I want to play as much as I can. George W. Bush, he was like, I shouldn't play too much publicly while the troops are in Iraq. Other than that, they're all, they're all hammer and tongs.
[00:03:08] Rod: He used to get really bad sweat at the base of his spine that would dribble down and make it look like he'd weed himself from the bum.
[00:03:14] Will: What? No, I don't have those details.
[00:03:16] Rod: GW, I've looked into it.
[00:03:17] Will: I don't have those details. And just for the record there's a lot of people that have been counting how much different presidents played golf. And you know, Trump was president and 300 ish games or something like that. Obama played
[00:03:32] Rod: 190 or something?
[00:03:32] Will: No, it was a fair bit. But he was present for twice as long at time of recording. Yeah. I think he, he played maybe 600 or something like that but they aren't even close.
[00:03:40] Rod: And Trump was famous for bagging Obama out until he got in.
[00:03:43] Will: Yeah, he definitely is. Obama plays golf all the time. I won't have time to play golf. Except the time that he did play golf.
[00:03:48] Rod: And also, let's be clear, a game of golf equals the day.
[00:03:51] Will: Yes.
[00:03:52] Rod: It's not like I did a quick level on Mario.
[00:03:54] Will: No. So Woodrow Wilson he was president in like, in the twenties and he played 1600 rounds of golf in the eight years he was president. And then he had to stop when he had a stroke. I think he played a round of golf every single morning and then got to work at 9am.
[00:04:07] Rod: But he was, he was infamous for pioneering the five hole golf green.
[00:04:12] Will: Well, it's possible. I mean, yeah.
[00:04:14] Rod: You want to know about golf history? I'm your guy.
[00:04:16] Will: You're the golf history guy. Yeah. But anyway, I mean, they've for a long time American presidents have golf has been sort of, it's the sport that they play.
[00:04:25] I mean, maybe it's a good bit of exercise. You know, you're walking, it depends. It depends.
[00:04:30] Rod: Okay. I put it to you. Trump, let's visualize
[00:04:34] Will: America's most exercised president
[00:04:35] Rod: the amount of golf he plays. I mean, to be fair, you can counteract the effects of exercise quite easily with other habits, but still I'm like, is it great exercise?
[00:04:44] Will: Well, if you were to, you know, you know, 18 holes of golf, it could be like a, I don't know, 10 K walk or something like that. And that's a solid amount of exercise. If you do that, if you do that every day. But if you drive your buggy and then take a swing and then
[00:04:58] Rod: I hear he drives onto the green. That's a no for our non golf aficionados.
[00:05:02] Will: He does. The other thing for American presidents is that it's also, it's a time when you can talk to people in a way that's sort of, a little bit more discreet, you know, obviously where all business is done.
[00:05:12] Rod: Tough shot Mike, but Hey, what about that takeover we're running with...
[00:05:16] Will: yeah, let's invade country number two yeah. Yeah. Something like that. So, so a lot of American presidents have played golf. But the question, you know, well, the first question is is Trump any good at golf? Because if he's claimed he's won the, these championships
[00:05:32] Rod: He was reputed to be an athlete in his college years.
[00:05:35] Will: He was reputed to be an athlete.
[00:05:37] Rod: And not just by him. Like I've heard others say he was actually at least relatively fit and healthy. What he was 22 and from a wealthy family and
[00:05:46] Will: yeah and he's pretty tall and broad like, like he's got some pounds on him now. I think he was probably in his youth, a fairly fit guy.
[00:05:53] Rod: I've heard he was fairly physically capable.
[00:05:55] Will: Well, golf digest once ranked the American presidents by handicap. I'm sure there are lists of American presidents on their attractiveness. I don't have them in front of me now.
[00:06:05] Rod: Abraham Lincoln.
[00:06:07] Will: Baberaham Lincoln, you mean?
[00:06:08] Rod: Fuck yeah, I do.
[00:06:09] Will: Obviously number one. Yeah. And then Taft. And then
[00:06:13] Rod: definitely Taft. And then obviously Hoover the other one, one of the Hoover's is a very attractive president. Grover Cleveland, a name like Grover
[00:06:20] Will: Grover is so sexy.
[00:06:22] Rod: I know you hear the name. My name is Grover. If you had that on your Tinder profile, you'd be getting laid all the time. You need nothing else.
[00:06:28] Will: Male or female name.
[00:06:29] Rod: This is my daughter, Grover, you're a criminal.
[00:06:32] Will: If your name is Grover, and you're a lady, this is awesome please, this is, I love it.
[00:06:36] Rod: Put us in touch with your parents. So, which drugs and how many?
[00:06:42] Will: But back on their golf scores, this is Golf Digest in 2022, who came number one?
[00:06:48] Rod: Clinton,
[00:06:50] Will: Clinton plays golf, but Clinton is famously not great.
[00:06:53] Rod: Cause he's always nude. He played nude. It was very distracting. Is it Trumpy?
[00:06:56] Will: It is. It is. It is Donald Trump.
[00:06:58] Rod: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Carry on. Carry on.
[00:07:00] Will: So he just for non golf listeners. This is by Handicap, the lower, the better. Basically your handicap is what you'd be expected to get over par on a course. A handicap of zero, you know, expecting par on all the time is a big claim.
[00:07:14] Rod: Not even Tiger did he?
[00:07:16] Will: Well, I don't know. I don't have in front of me but we're in the zone of, you know, best golfer when you're down that sort of, and maybe it's possible, but Trump 2. 8. At the time, Jack Nicklaus, who's one of the best golfers ever at the same sort of age as Trump was 3. 5. So
[00:07:33] Rod: I believe it.
[00:07:34] Will: Yeah. There's a little bit of, do you reckon?
[00:07:36] Rod: So is it based on how many of your own trophies you've won? Well, look, you seem like you have a handicap. We're going to subtract it.
[00:07:44] Will: I'll just round out the top three. Biden number two at 6. 7. I'm just like, okay,
[00:07:52] Rod: we have now explained why Trump cheats.
[00:07:54] Will: JFK number three, but he was youthful and virile
[00:07:57] Rod: wasn't he? And and he had old fashioned technology.
[00:08:00] Will: He did. He did. Well, I think JFK was actually quite good before he came in.
[00:08:04] Rod: His golf clubs were made out of teak, like he didn't have any metal in him. He was very old school.
[00:08:08] Will: All of those banned woods that no one was allowed to have .
[00:08:11] Rod: The woods were wooden. His irons were wood as well.
[00:08:13] Will: And look, there are some other evidence that potentially Trump might be okay at golf. Like there's some people say he's got a really good drive, can hit it a long way and maybe he's okay on the putting. And he has one 23 club championships
[00:08:27] Rod: across all one of the clubs.
[00:08:31] Will: I'm going to go a lot from this great book by the sports writer, Rick Riley. The title of the book is commander in cheat, how golf explains Trump. And there are so many good stories in here. Well, he reckons 23, oh my God, like he's like any like sort of amateur player, like the best he's ever heard before is like eight and Trump's got 23.
[00:08:53] Rod: That's how good he is.
[00:08:54] Will: So yeah. Rick Riley reckons if Trump is a 2. 8 handicap, then Queen Elizabeth is a pole vaulter. Riley reckons Trump cheats like a mafia accountant. He cheats crazy. He cheats whether you're watching or not. He cheats, whether you'd like it or not.
[00:09:09] He doesn't care who knows? And I mean, Exploring a whole bunch of Trump cheating stories.
[00:09:15] Rod: You don't have time. You don't have time.
[00:09:16] Will: Oh my God. There's some cool ones. So I just want to go through a few stories of how Trump cheats on the golf course.
[00:09:22] Rod: I've got to say that. I love the whole, whether people watching or not. And I mean, if you're going to cheat, I love the idea of you walk up, you look at the people you're playing with, you do that and you kick the ball out of the rough.
[00:09:31] Will: I am going to come back to that 100%. I want to understand why he cheats. How first, and then we'll come to why. So no there's a bunch of cool stories. So the first one a guy won the Trump international club championships in 2018. It wasn't Trump. Cause Trump was in North Korea at the time doing presidential things. So fair enough.
[00:09:50] Anyway, Trump comes in, comes up to him on the course and says, Hey, congrats on winning the club championships, but you didn't really win because I was out of town. The dude goes
[00:10:00] Rod: get fucked.
[00:10:01] Will: Okay. And then Trump says, well, anyway, you've got six holes to go. So let's play for the championships now.
[00:10:09] And the dude's like, Hey, I'm playing with my son here. And Trump's like, that's cool. Don't worry.
[00:10:13] Rod: So not actual tournament and only six holes then we'll decide who's actually the champion.
[00:10:17] Will: Yes. Yes.
[00:10:17] Rod: Am I allowed to guess who won those six holes?
[00:10:20] Will: They came to a hole that's over a big pond. They tee off. So, the guy who, who actually won tees off, then his son tees off and Trump goes third. the first two get over the pond and over to the green and Trump goes straight into the pond.
[00:10:35] Rod: Someone moved the pond.
[00:10:36] Will: Anyway, the story is that on all of Trump's Trump's courses, he's got a turbocharged golf cart.
[00:10:42] Rod: If you push too hard, it's pulling monos.
[00:10:47] Will: Like I, I think it's something like that. Like he can beat anyone
[00:10:50] Rod: Is it a dragster too? Like are the back wheels way bigger than the front?
[00:10:53] Will: I'm imagining this. Like he really, he's like, no, it's gotta, it's gotta be fast.
[00:10:57] Rod: And it clatters. When it's just idling, it's like, and it blows it up and down like a chicano car.
[00:11:02] Will: So they all get in their golf carts, but he fangs it and he's bolting over to the other side. And he steals the son's ball. He's like, Oh, here's my ball and he starts playing it. And the other guy goes,
[00:11:12] Rod: Oh that's a schlesinger. You're playing a spalding.
[00:11:15] Will: He's like, nah, And he said, and he gets his caddy to back him up and he steals the ball and then declares that he won. And he says magnanimously, I'll tell you what, we'll be co championships. So he just, so he'll, he's happily to steal other people's ball and he's, he zooms around the court.
[00:11:32] Rod: I know we're asking this is the whole point of the episode and you're going to answer it, but I can't help it, every time I hear that, I go. But why? Everyone knows you absolute fucking dingus. Everyone knows. Carry on.
[00:11:45] Will: He's famous for kicking balls. You're not meant to on the golf course. I mean, for seasoned players like you, obviously for others.
[00:11:52] Rod: Yeah. My handicap's nine, but that's still pretty good.
[00:11:54] Will: It's not a kicking sport, but not deliberately. He'll kick his own balls. Like he'll walk along and he'll just give it a boat closer to the green.
[00:12:03] Rod: He is the judge on Caddyshack. I don't know if you ever watched Caddyshack or you remember it
[00:12:07] Will: he's very happy to do that.
[00:12:09] Rod: Mark that as a two Timmy.
[00:12:10] Will: And he'll kick his opponent's balls backwards or into the bunker or into the pond. There's a story. There's a story, he was playing these three guys in LA. I think this was before he was president.
[00:12:22] They all tee off and he splashes into the pond again. By the time they get there, his balls in the middle of the fairway and they're like, what the fuck Donald? And he goes, it must've been the tide. So everyone's calling him Pele for how much he kicks the ball.
[00:12:36] Rod: Fucking Lunar. It's Lunar Eclipse time. The gravity changed just briefly and moved everything. See, no shits given. No two fucks like, none whatsoever.
[00:12:46] Will: Well, his being pure arsehole. He was playing a sports broadcaster, Mike Tirocco. Mike hits a long, soaring shot into a par five, over it goes, heads for the green. When he gets there, there's no sign of the ball. It had somehow ended up in the sand trap, 50 feet to the left. Lousy break, says Trump. Trump's caddy came up to him later and said, yeah, Trump threw it into the bunker.
[00:13:06] Rod: What a fucking baby. But he is the one, he's on record as claiming he hasn't changed since he was five. And there's a lot of evidence to back that up.
[00:13:13] Will: Yeah. I think we could probably track a bit of toddler behaviour. A little bit. Another one that he's famous for in golf there, there's two things called a gimme and a mulligan. A gimme is when you're pretty close to the hole and you just go, Oh, I would've got it in anyway.
[00:13:29] Rod: It's three inches away from the hole, don't bother.
[00:13:32] Will: And if it's three inches, then it's a, it's an agreement between the players, a gentleman's or a lady's agreement to say, you know, it still counts as a shot, but you know, three inches fine. But Trump will claim gimme's from a long way away.
[00:13:45] Rod: From the T.
[00:13:46] Will: Not quite the T. So Rick Reilly’s like, yeah, he's the first and only person I've ever heard a gimme when it's still chipping in from the fairway. So he's like, I'm close enough. That's a gimme.
[00:13:58] Rod: I'm in the bunker. It's 90 yards to the hole. We'll call it a gimme. I'm actually, I'm realizing, I know a lot more about golf than I thought because he used to play a lot of computer golf. And you learn all this stuff. Like, like the mulligan is, well, you know, I could try and get it out of the rough or I'll take a mulligan, I'll lose a shot and I'll throw it onto the fairway. Well, a drop or a drop really. Mulligan's a do over, isn't it?
[00:14:17] Will: Mulligan's a do over.
[00:14:18] Rod: A drop is, you say, I'm never going to hit it out here. I'll take a shot and I'll drop it over your shoulder.
[00:14:24] Will: I don't know if Trump's doing that. He's just going to move it in.
[00:14:27] Rod: It's got the word gentleman in it. So no, he doesn't.
[00:14:29] Will: Yeah. And yeah, the mulligan is the do over.
[00:14:31] Rod: It's for babies and extreme amateurs playing very
[00:14:34] Will: So you hit a ball and it goes into the rough or into the pond and he just goes, I'll have a do over. I'll do it. I'll have a mulligan. And he's taking like huge numbers here.
[00:14:41] Rod: Cause he claims Irish heritage. I am a mulligan. I'm allowed to take as many mulligans as I want.
[00:14:48] Will: But the key thing is if you you know, formally registering your handicap, then you've got to lodge your scores
[00:14:54] Rod: and you can't have mulligans, gimme's, do overs, whatever. You can't.
[00:14:57] Will: Trump doesn't. Like he's all just counting his own scores and
[00:15:01] Rod: doesn't register. He just says, this is my handicap. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What's the best one. I'm 10 under that , fuck me. What clown.
[00:15:09] Will: So then it comes to the club championships, and this is just great. his club championships. And as I said before, you know, he's got a vast number 23 club championships, which is a spectacular achievement if you've done it
[00:15:21] Rod: the cheating to get there and the brass to actually claim it is an achievement.
[00:15:25] Will: So he gets these club championships in some interesting ways. One is, and he's explicitly said this story. Whenever I open a new golf course, I play the official opening round and then I just call that the first club championship. There you go. I'm first club champion.
[00:15:42] Rod: And the saddest thing about that is. There is a logic to that.
[00:15:44] Will: Oh, totally. Totally. And it's said, you know, he'll just drive around with Melania, whack the, and it doesn't matter what the scores are because no one else is allowed to play yet. And it says champion. So he'll put himself up there. But then he'll do a bunch of other like dodgy things to claim a championship.
[00:15:57] There's a story where Trump was declared the senior club champion at Trump National Bedminster in New Jersey, even though he was in Pennsylvania on the day the event was played.
[00:16:06] Rod: Oh, he didn't even play.
[00:16:07] Will: He didn't play. And he played on a different course and then rang into the pro shop and said, I've, I shot a 73. I don't know what the other winner had done and should be declared the winner. The pro who's organizing the championship wanted to stay employed and so he's like, all right, Trump won with a score he rang in from a different course. So whether it happened on that different course,
[00:16:32] Rod: like I knew he found things that I'd never even thought of committing, you know, crimes, lies, and whatever. But the idea that you'd go, I won and I didn't even play it again. Look, there's a part of me. He doesn't even know what a shit is. Well, actually he probably doesn't, but you know what I mean.
[00:16:46] Will: Shame maybe, or lack of, might be part of it. That's not my full explanation.
[00:16:49] Rod: No, but it's also innovative. It's innovative to go, you know what? I won and I wasn't even in the tournament. I wasn't even there and I fucking won and he's a reason.
[00:16:57] Will: So there's another time when there was championships and he just claimed he scored a 67, eight strokes less than the pro had shot two weeks earlier. So he's just whatever.
[00:17:08] Rod: Of course you do. Because if the pro was any good, as if he'd be working for someone else.
[00:17:13] Will: Look, I think that's part of the problem.
[00:17:14] Rod: Anyone who works for him, he already has disdain for.
[00:17:17] Will: So here's the thing. I'm like, what is going on? The first thing, I mean, there's a bunch of people that want to explain this psychologically and Rick Riley was one. Here's Riley's take. So this is a psychological sort of take on why Trump would cheat.
[00:17:31] He's always been like this. We've known this guy in the sports world for 30 years. He's always told people that no one can beat him, that he's the best of the rich guys. I love that he wants to be the best of the rich guys. So Trump makes it so he always wins, even if he loses. He just wants to be able to tell people that they beat their ass.
[00:17:46] And, you know, Riley went to a psychiatrist in Harvard and said, what's this? And he's like, it's narcissism. You know, you know, he can't handle the idea of not being number one, so he'll make up anything to be number one.
[00:17:58] He exaggerates his scores and his handicap. And, you know, You know, that, that kind of explains some of it. I had a dive here into the literature on cheating in sport that's not Trump.
[00:18:09] Rod: How did you do this in only a week or two? I mean, there must have been so much material.
[00:18:12] Will: Look, there, there is a lot of material out there, you know, and people have classically cheated in sport for in all sorts of ways, since sport began. Absolutely. And the dominant drive is that yes there's psychological explanations where you wanna win more than the consequences of being caught count
[00:18:28] Rod: I think we need to qualify that. You want to be able to claim you won.
[00:18:32] Will: That's an interesting one. That's an interesting one. I'll hold to that one. Hold to that one. I'll hold it. So, you know, you get a mentality where it's like winning becomes the overriding thing and cheating is justified, but I kind of think psychological explanations don't cover everything here.
[00:18:46] Rod: You're looking for a more sociological
[00:18:48] Will: you know, you can go broader. Like there's a system going on here that's enabling Trump. And I think any form of cheating, you've got to have understand the system as well.
[00:18:56] Rod: We should say for the non eggheads. So psychological is very much about the individual and in the brain, because it's obvious to us, but a lot of people didn't realize this or don't. Sociological, you explain it via the interconnections and the mechanisms, between and among people.
[00:19:08] Will: There you go. There you go. Lance Armstrong famous tour de France winner and cheat. Yes. You know, he achieved a unique thing of winning whilst very drug assisted, seven tour de France.
[00:19:22] Rod: But he did physically do it.
[00:19:23] Will: One of the hardest races in the world, literally to do, but to win them a huge achievement. And yes, he did it by massive amounts of drug cheating, but he sort of justified it.
[00:19:34] And a lot of people had said, this is the, this is every cheats justification is everyone's doing it. So for me to win I have to do it as well. I'm caught. I'm kind of caught. So it's not necessarily about them. Yeah. No, they literally say that I'm going to be cheated if I don't do it.
[00:19:51] So yes, it's a rationalization, but it is an understanding like of the system where it's like everyone's doing it. Then the only way for it to be slightly fair is if I do it and don't get caught.
[00:20:02] Rod: I'm not unsympathetic to the argument because it's not untrue. It doesn't mean it's good, but,
[00:20:07] Will: but it doesn't apply to Trump. No, I don't think that explanation applies to Trump at all, because you know, there's a couple of like little words that, that I heard in a few of the stories that stuck out and you jumped on a few of them before. It's like, well, the first one is he doesn't give a shit about people knowing that he cheats.
[00:20:24] Like, he as Rick Riley says, he cheats whether you're watching or not, he doesn't care if he knows.
[00:20:31] Rod: It's so weird. That is to me so weird. Like it's one thing to cheat without being realized and then you actually can't, people all think you won.
[00:20:40] Will: But he is not worried. So, just hold this in your head for a sec. He is not worried if people know that he cheats.
[00:20:47] Rod: Yeah.
[00:20:48] Will: Okay. Second thing, a lot of stories about people, him buttering people up afterwards. Like he'll buy you lunch, he'll be friendly. He'll be like, you know, we can be co champions, that kind of thing.
[00:20:59] There's a bunch of that. And the third thing that I find interesting here is that there's a lot of people that have played him, Tiger Woods, Jack Nicklaus, who, Talk about Trump cheating. And a lot of people have said it gives them a story. Like they're not intolerant to it.
[00:21:16] They're kind of tolerant. They're like, that's what you get. Yeah. That's what you get. You join the myth. That's what you get when. Like, so, Tiger Woods has got a story. Dustin Johnson, another golf champion. And the thing that Riley shows is I all, I wanted my story about Trump cheating. Everyone wants their own little bit of, you know what he did? He did this thing
[00:21:35] Rod: okay. It comes back to the Trump phenomenon. It doesn't matter. Yeah. It doesn't matter if it's in golf. So, okay. That, that it's a good point. Cause it's so easy to forget. You get caught up in the detail. There is no fucking detail with him. It's the same thing. In every arena.
[00:21:49] Will: So tell me, so what is your take on why
[00:21:51] Rod: people want Trump to exist and people want to be able to say, I saw it like people want, you're right, like they want a Trump story. I'd fucking want one too. And Trump doesn't care.
[00:22:01] Trump wants to be the story. So he's getting attention. He's getting his nuts tickled one way or another, all good. Doesn't matter how, mechanism irrelevant. And let's be fair, cause I haven't said it for at least two episodes. I do have a 28 year old psych degree. So I'm probably right.
[00:22:17] Will: Yeah. Well, well, I think it's actually your anthropology degree.
[00:22:20] Rod: I have one of those too. Did I mention honors in both?
[00:22:24] Will: No, I think, you know, this is the thing is that cheating is the point. Like it is not inconsequential. Like he, he wants, he likes the idea of having won the championship.
[00:22:34] You know, he likes the the trophy. He likes his name on the board. I get all of that. And a lot of people like that, but I think cheating is the point. Now I think that a lot of people, a lot of people talk about the emperor's new clothes with Trump. They're like, it shows his lack of shame and everyone being complicit.
[00:22:50] Now I think the complicit thing is totally right. Story is the emperor needs needs a new costume. The tailor has run out of ideas and the tailor is like, ah, here's your magic new costume. It's the finest, most amazing. So the tailor is tricking the emperor. The emperor is like, okay, he's a fool and is happy to be tricked. And then the town is complicit because the emperor has enough power over
[00:23:11] Rod: except for the child who goes
[00:23:13] Will: little kid calls it out and says, Hey, bullshit. This is, I don't think that's quite right for Trump.
[00:23:17] Rod: No. Cause Trump relishes in being the dude who's nude.
[00:23:20] Will: Yes.
[00:23:22] Rod: I'm nude. You all know it. And you're still letting me have it.
[00:23:24] Will: This is the thing. This is the thing. He wants to walk around with his dick out. He wants everyone to know, he's a cheat and there is nothing we can do about it because we are all complicit. We have transacted, we all want our story and he absolutely wants it to show that the rules do not apply to him.
[00:23:41] Rod: My power is so great. Stand in the middle of fifth Avenue and shoot someone you'd still like.
[00:23:44] Will: I was fascinated about this cause I reckon Riley is right. You know, the title of his book how golf explains Trump. And I think it's right down right in the middle that he is like, this is a place where golf depends on like a sort of gentlemen's or ladies agreement that will abide by the rules.
[00:23:59] Rod: Like most things,
[00:24:00] Will: no, but even more. So like you're actually literally meters away from each other, hundreds of meters away from each other. You've got to kind of agree that you'll play fair. There's no referee. There's no umpire. And so Trump is like, I'm going to cheat. You're going to get something out of this. You will get a cool Trump story. I will cheat and I will win. And then we'll all be complicit and I will rub it right in your face.
[00:24:24] Rod: You'll shake my hand while I'm banging my dick on your forehead and you'll smile and tell someone about it.
[00:24:32] Will: So that is the Wholesome Show verdict on why Trump cheats at golf.
[00:24:38] What have you been thinking about?
[00:24:39] Rod: Oh, whatever happened to Skype?
[00:24:42] Will: I used Skype a year or two ago.
[00:24:45] Rod: What happened to Skype?
[00:24:46] Will: Well, they fucked the pandemic. Like, like they were like the video conferencing software up until 2019.
[00:24:52] Rod: Why?
[00:24:53] Will: I don't know.
[00:24:54] Rod: Cause I heard someone say that I cut some podcast, not ours. And it's like, what happened to Skype? And I'm like, fuck yeah. What happened to Skype?
[00:24:59] Will: You know, you know, like throughout the whole 2010s, if you wanted to have a video chat with someone, you go, let's have a Skype but you don't Skype. So why did Skype die in the ass?
[00:25:08] Rod: Ever. I don't even know if I have Skype anymore. And I, and like, it'd be like someone saying, are you on my space?
[00:25:15] Will: It's so funny how it died.
[00:25:16] Rod: What happened to Skype? There's one.
[00:25:18] Will: All right. All right. Well, I've got a tech story for you that I've been pondering about. I, I saw a little article about the growth of a new category of porn. And listening, you're like, why do I need to know about new category? Well, that is, well, here's the thing. Many people have desires, their own proclivities, but occasionally someone comes up with something that I'm like, never had, never. That's not part of my brain.
[00:25:39] Rod: And also between us, we can probably come up with just about everything some fucking pervert would think of probably.
[00:25:45] Will: So this is the growth of what's called self sessed. So this is a new thing that is enabled by AI, or, you know, something like that where you can theoretically generate physical model in, in 3d of an actor, could be yourself. And then you can theoretically watch two versions of yourself. I had never thought I would want to watch
[00:26:12] Rod: I thought it was intrasyst. It's just like I invented the, what do you call it? Not like I always called it false ID, imposter syndrome for years before I used to say, it's like having a false ID, even though you don't.
[00:26:25] So I'd call it false ID syndrome. People went, Oh, there's this new thing called imposter syndrome. And I'm like, Oh, that's why you write shit down.
[00:26:31] Will: You should, you should get out there. You could have named this, but anyway, I had never, wondered about people wanting to watch themselves bang themselves. While you're inherently on the outside
[00:26:41] Rod: there's a lot of porn I do not want to watch. And that may be the one I want to watch least. I mean, that's impressive. I don't want to see just me with someone else, better yet me and me.
[00:26:50] Will: It does remind me. There's a little comic strip I saw years ago where this dude took a time machine to go back in time and bang himself. And of all of the things.
[00:27:00] Rod: Why do you want time travel? I want to fuck me. Young me though cause I'm not an animal.
[00:27:04] Will: Yeah, of course. You know, you don't want to go and fuck old me. I mean, maybe old you is lonely and not getting much. And then you could go to old you and have intercourse with old you.
[00:27:15] Rod: I don't like hanging with you anymore.
[00:27:16] Will: But, but don't you feel sorry for old you? Old you is like sitting in a retirement home wishing, wishing they could get some and suddenly time machine young you or medium. Here we go. Middle aged you. Goes and picks up young you to go and fuck off.
[00:27:32] Rod: And young me looks up and goes, you look familiar. And old me goes, why am I here? There's no judgment on other people who find different things attractive. But my first thing before I realized it's me is still a dude, not super keen. I'm not dude aroused, but then I'm like, it's me. And then I get into this whole kind of like this again, we're in the rabbit hole here, this circle of what do you call it?
[00:27:57] And I know that there's a name, but I mean, actually, what is it? What is the transgression?
[00:28:00] Will: Well, there's no transgression
[00:28:01] Rod: isn't there? Why does it feel like there is?
[00:28:04] Will: No, you can, everyone here is consenting.
[00:28:06] Rod: That's true. That's true. If one of me says I'm into it and the other one goes, I really don't want to.
[00:28:10] Will: Well, okay.
[00:28:11] Rod: Would you take yourself against your will?
[00:28:15] Will: I feel no.
[00:28:16] Rod: You started it.
[00:28:17] Will: I feel no. What else are you thinking about?
[00:28:20] Rod: Corporate personality tests, which sounds very boring, but holy shit, I've been around them off and on for decades. And now my much better half is also quite involved in personality.
[00:28:29] They call them inventories because test sounds, you know, far too confrontational. Well, I used to, but I'm like, I'm fascinated by them because the more you look into them, the world is rich with what they are, how they're used, how validated they are and the effects they can have on humans
[00:28:43] Will: and how fake they are.
[00:28:45] Rod: Well, fake is a word that does a lot of weird and tangled heavy lifting.
[00:28:49] Will: I just feel like anytime you get Myers Briggsy, I'm like it's astrology with pseudoscience.
[00:28:55] Rod: Yeah. But then you add DISC, Belbin, these are the ones I remember, plus other mis there's heaps. There's heaps.
[00:29:01] Will: Prince 12, Prince 13.
[00:29:02] Rod: That's project management tools.
[00:29:03] Will: Oh, okay. I don't know. They don't seem the same to me.
[00:29:05] Rod: But there are newer ones that I've been made aware of and the thing that always makes me suspicious is really heavily in their byline is science backed, science proved, science tested. What that usually means is a shitload of surveys and stuff. But to be fair, a lot of actual psychology is exactly the same.
[00:29:21] Will: Not flip it around, but drill deep. Why do these corporates want these things?
[00:29:24] Rod: They want them so bad because it's a allegedly shorthand.
[00:29:27] Will: You know, you know, I see these, you know, I have had the joy, fortune, misfortune to sit on selection committees and you know, when they come through, here's your, here's the CV and here's, you know, Whatever.
[00:29:37] That's fine. You know, this is what you've done. I like to see that this is your answer to some selection criteria again. That's fine. Fair enough. Yeah. But then they have to do like a psychometric test, and I'm like, I a if your question is, do you stab people a lot? Or do you think about stabbing people?
[00:29:52] Rod: The correct answer is how much is a lot?
[00:29:54] Will: I feel like it's not gonna catch anyone, and it's like it's imprecise. What a, what a crock of shit.
[00:29:59] Rod: Have you had to do any for a job application?
[00:30:01] Will: It's in the dim distant past
[00:30:03] Rod: I had to do a few and the last one I did
[00:30:06] Will: I had one where I had to match numbers really quickly to see if you're a machine or not.
[00:30:10] Yeah, it was like seven, five, eight, seven, six, one, two, and seven, five, eight, seven, six, one, three. And you've got to see if they're the same.
[00:30:16] Rod: Well, I had to do some for the last time I went for a job, I think was a public service job cause I wasn't sure if I wanted to stay in the academy. And I did all the tests. I did all the things and blah, blah, blah. And they went, they call me and said, Hey, you didn't get the job. I'm like, yeah, fuck whatever. And then they said, but we want to offer you a different one. I thought that's intriguing, but it wasn't a spy job, which is disappointing.
[00:30:33] Will: We need someone to invade Putin.
[00:30:36] Rod: Yep. Invade the putin. But like, yeah, so it was weird.
[00:30:40] Will: I got one other that I've been thinking about. And I don't know what this is. There was a bit, there was a a big study in the Lancet recently which is a big population health journal talking about
[00:30:51] Rod: actual medical journal.
[00:30:52] Will: Yeah. Whatever.
[00:30:53] Rod: It's not epidemiology.
[00:30:54] Will: Whatever they published that. This is an epidemiology.
[00:30:57] Rod: What are you like a starting out scholarly academic population?
[00:31:03] Will: Anyway talking about how by 2100 just about every country will be in population decline.
[00:31:09] Rod: 2100. I can work with that.
[00:31:11] Will: And I know that there are a lot of people who've been fighting for that outcome. And there are a lot of people who are very worried about that outcome. And I don't know what to feel. I don't know what to feel as a
[00:31:23] Rod: decline is an interesting word to use too cause decline, I've never heard decline used in a positive way, but you could say
[00:31:30] Will: sliding down a slippery slide, I'm declining down the slippery slide. There you go. That's a positive way
[00:31:34] Rod: as most people always say, but I mean, yeah, if you said the population will be getting smaller, it's different to population decline.
[00:31:41] Will: No, population we're getting optimized.
[00:31:45] Rod: We're not maximizing, we're optimizing. So it's a feel good story.
[00:31:48] Will: But I do want to, I do want to know why does it hit people in such weird ways. And what is good or bad about this? And it's not freaking simple. You know, there are people like, no, we should be maximizing. We should be a hundred trillion out to the stars. Fuck every star in the universe. That is us. Or other people are like, we should be, 10 of us, 10 of us, like
[00:32:09] Rod: eight villages of 10 people, but the best people.
[00:32:12] Will: Hey, just a couple of cool things from the mailbag. Thank you so much listeners. Thank you weaponized math. There's a few things in relation to people demonstrating things are safe or not safe. Weaponized math, there was a story about one of the stories was about the engineer who who died by demonstrating the safety didn't work.
[00:32:30] And he says all you had to say was engineer and gun. Oh man. Oh man. Nath3438 that reminds me of sales reps. Drinking roundup to show that it was safe. Again, not cool. Drinking roundup. And Sarah G. And dowsing soldiers in ancient orange.
[00:32:49] Rod: Well look, to be fair, in the moment they didn't die.
[00:32:51] Will: And to close this out, because I don't want to hear the whole story, Adam Ropen wants to know more about your love for Bloom County, Billy and the Boingers.
[00:32:59] Rod: Oh, so good. So good.
[00:33:00] Will: I'm going to turn this up.
[00:33:24] Rod: I didn't know it went this long.
[00:33:25] Will: Yeah, it keeps going. It keeps going. There's a lot in here.
