Will Grant has vanished, and my best theory is he’s either in the Amazon hunting snakes or in Antarctica trying to build a whole city out of snow. Nobody can confirm, but all I know is he’s not here and you’re stuck with me.
So this week is a rummage through the archives: four segments I really like. If you’ve heard them before, think of it as a hug from an old friend. If you haven’t, welcome. You’re about to learn some extremely unhelpful things.
The Experience Machine
Alright, imagine a machine that can simulate any experience, any life, any version of you. You pre-program it with whatever you want: fame, success, space travel, playing guitar like you’re the bastard love child of Jimi Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen, or finally organising your iPhone photos into neat little folders in three seconds. The classics.
Once you’re plugged in, it feels real, and you don’t even know it’s a simulation. So would you do it, and not just for a Friday night either. Would you commit?
This is the thought experiment philosopher Robert Nozick threw into the world in the 70s to mess with the idea that pleasure is the only thing that matters. Because on paper, the machine is perfect: no suffering, no heartbreak, no awkward job interviews, no letdowns, just a clean, curated life.
And yet most people don’t want it. I don’t just want to feel like I did things, I want to actually do them. I want the struggle and the earned win, the part where I can say I climbed the mountain, not that my brain got a convincing mountain download.
There’s also the uncomfortable detail that someone has to keep the machine running. Someone has to stay outside, shovel the uranium, and clean out your tank fluids, so even if you want the perfect life, you’re still outsourcing the worst bits of reality to someone else.
HA, HA, Havana Syndrome
Back in 2016, US officials in Havana started reporting weird symptoms: headaches, dizziness, balance issues, insomnia, cognitive problems. Not great.
It got called Havana Syndrome, then the government did what governments do and renamed it something that sounds like a printer error: Anomalous Health Incidents.
Since then, hundreds more cases have been reported around the world, from China to Eastern Europe to India to a vague “elsewhere”. Some people report hearing a strange localised sound and some don’t, and the theories have been all over the shop.
Directed energy weapons, toxic exposure, stress, social contagion, a bit of everything and a bit of nothing. The official position is basically a slow motion shrug.
One report says a foreign government probably isn’t behind it. Another says pulsed electromagnetic energy is a plausible explanation. Another says there’s no credible evidence any foreign adversary has a device that causes it.
Then a Washington Post report drops about a Norwegian scientist who was a leading sceptic of the whole directed energy idea, so naturally he builds one and, naturally, he tests it on himself. In the head.
And apparently it works. He gives himself a nice little sample platter of Havana style symptoms and suddenly everyone’s doing official trips to Norway and quietly buying pulsed radio weapons for eight figures.
So where does that leave me. Somewhere between “people are suffering and something is happening”, “nobody can agree what’s causing it”, and “please don’t panic, but also please ignore the weird machine purchase”.
APPARENTLY Venting Makes You Angrier…
Which is rude, because venting feels amazing. I love a rant, and a good vent feels like it should clear the system, like a sneeze that resets your soul.
Science says not so fast. A 2024 meta analysis out of Ohio State looked at 154 studies with over 10,000 participants and found basically no evidence that venting helps. In some cases, it makes you angrier.
The key idea is arousal, not the teenage boy kind, the physiological kind. If I do things that crank me up, I tend to keep the anger alive. If I do things that bring arousal down, I tend to reduce anger.
So slow breathing, mindfulness, progressive muscle relaxation, slow yoga, taking time out, all the boring calm down stuff. Meanwhile, some high energy activities can be great for your heart and terrible for your temper, and jogging gets a special mention, which feels correct on a spiritual level.
The more honest take is this: I don’t vent because I want to stop being angry, I vent because sometimes I want to be angry. I want to spread it around, roll in it, polish it up, and deliver it as a speech.
ARE YOU A BORING PERSON?
A 2022 study out of the University of Essex looked at the stereotype of “boring people”, jobs, hobbies, personality traits, the whole lot.
Certain jobs get labelled boring fast, like accounting, banking, and data work, and certain hobbies get dragged too, like watching TV, sleeping, religion, and even mathematics, which is not a hobby unless you’re a very specific kind of person.
But the sharper point is what people assume about boring people: that they lack humour, that they lack opinions, that they’re low warmth and low competence, and generally disliked. Those stereotypes have consequences, because people avoid you, treat you differently, and make snap judgements before you’ve even opened your mouth.
The study even asked participants how much money they’d need to be paid to spend time with a stereotypically boring person. The numbers were not as high as they should’ve been, which either means the participants were generous or they’ve never been trapped in a three person conversation at a party.
AND ThAT’S A Wrap
So that’s the episode: a perfect pleasure simulator that still doesn’t feel like a real life, a global mystery that refuses to resolve neatly, proof that venting might be petrol not therapy, and a reminder that “boring” is often just a lazy stereotype with real social fallout.
Will’s back next week, probably with a snake in one hand and a chunk of Antarctic ice in the other.
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Just Rod Here
00:55 Nozick Experience Machine
03:37 Would You Plug In
04:50 Why Authenticity Matters
08:50 Havana Syndrome Origins
11:25 Weapon Theories and Reports
14:41 Norwegian Microwave Test
21:46 Official Flip Flops Summary
23:25 Why Venting Feels Good
24:25 Venting Myth Busted
25:57 Meta Analysis Breakdown
27:29 Calm Down Techniques
28:48 Jogging Makes It Worse
31:14 Why We Love Anger
32:42 Playful Exercise Exception
33:37 Boring People Study
34:28 Boring Jobs And Traits
36:29 Escape Boring Conversations
40:57 Pay To Hang Out
43:44 Stereotypes And Wrap Up
SOURCES:
https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/life/2024/04/13/april-11-boring-day
https://bigthink.com/personal-growth/seven-thought-experiments-thatll-make-you-question-everything/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2026/02/14/havana-syndrome-cia-norway-experiment/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome
https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/13/politics/havana-syndrome-device-pentagon-hsi
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[00:00:00]
It's time for a little bit of science. Sadly though, it's only one of us. It's just me, rod Lambert's, the, 30 year cyclone veteran with the mind of a teenage boy. Will Grant is somewhere else. I think he's in the Amazon hunting snakes, but he could be in Antarctica trying to see if he can actually build the whole city outta snow.
It's not clear to me. He just disappeared and said, I can't be here this week. So instead, what we've done is I've rummaged through the archives. I've come up with four segments that I really quite like. We're revisiting boring people.
The experience machine, why venting makes you angrier and Havana Syndrome. if you've heard these before, I hope you look forward to hearing them again. It'll be like having a hug from an old friend if you haven't heard them before. Welcome to the show.
Speaker: First up, the experience machine. Have you heard of this? Does this ring
Will: any bells? No, I've, I've got... Do you want [00:01:00] me to guess what the experience machine is?
Speaker: If you want to, sure. Have
Will: a go. Well, I, I feel like it's a little bit like Dune. Um, you know, where he's gotta- ... he's gotta put his hand in the box and, and- Yeah
it's like, "What's in there?" And she says, "Pain." And he's like- Pain ... "Ah, okay." Yeah, she does it in The Voice. But I feel like, I feel like the experience machine is like you go to a fun fair or something like that, and you gotta put a body part in the box and, and- ... it's like, "What do you get?" It's like, "Well, you get an experience."
Speaker: Look, it could be any machine though, really. Any machine could be an experience.
Will: I feel like, I feel like it's, it's like a truck stop, um, toilet. You know, where there's a hole in the wall- ... and you put an experience machine and you put something through the hole.
Speaker: And you have an experience. The, the... Look, this actually could be all of those and everything else you can imagine, 'cause basically there's a philosopher guy called Robert Nozick, or No-chick, Nozick.
So he wrote a book '74, Anarchy, State and Utopia. And he did a thought experiment that wanted to [00:02:00] challenge hedonism, particularly extreme hedonism. Now, I'm a big fan of hedonism. You probably didn't know that about me. No, no one who knows me would, would have guessed that, but, um, it is only my, uh, surrounding loved ones, et cetera, who keep me from turning into an insane and inveterate hedonist, 'cause I like pleasure.
Hedonist being like the
Will: pleasure seeker.
Speaker: Love pleasure. I just love pleasure. And the pure head- hedonism is, you know, pleasure is the only thing that matters. So the deep philosophers of, of which I am not whom.
Will: Are there-
Speaker: Yeah ...
Will: are there deep philosophers who subscribe to hedonism? I mean, I didn't- Huh? ... I don't think they covered that in The Good Place, you know, and said, "Okay, now we should just go pure pleasure."
Speaker: That's the epilogue movie after The Good Place. Yeah. They're gonna go, "By the way..." No, you've always got that, what is that moral philosophy guy? Moral philosophy does come up in this. So the setup here, here's, here's the setup for the, the, the situa- the ch- the experience machine. So you gotta imagine a super advanced machine that can simulate any experience.
Will: Okay.
Speaker: Any, any experience. You get to pre-gr- pre-program basically that experience or your entire life. So it could be anything. [00:03:00] It could be fame, it could be success, it could be space travel, it could be being able to play table tennis like, you know, Jan-Ove Waldner, for example.
Will: Sure.
Speaker: Sure. He's very good at it.
Will: That guy. This is, this... So you're like in the Star Trek, um, the- The holosuite ... the
Speaker: holodeck.
Will: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, if you go full bore, you know, the, the comparisons to The Matrix come up and are- Okay ... because apparently in this machine you won't necessarily know it's a simulation. Oh. Once you're plugged in it'll feel real.
Will: Oh.
Speaker: Ah. So, so you're basically, you'll be floating in a tank, you know, electrodes in your brain. You'll be like in a living dream, your body will be sustained somehow, et cetera, et cetera. So imagine this exists, and this is well pre-Matrix. The question is, and these philosophers put it to you, is would you plug into this machine?
Oh. And the implication would be, and stay there. But would you plug in first up? Would you?
Will: I feel like, yes. Like, I feel like there's a bunch of things where you s- you say, "Well, I, you know, I'd like to do that, but it costs too much money," or it'd be, you know. Yeah. I, I, you know, I, I would like to eat, [00:04:00] um, the world's biggest hamburger.
I don't know. I, or I'm sure there's things.
Speaker: You've got... Y- is that your, your imagination is free to roam and you go big hamburger?
Will: Yeah, no, not really, but, you know, I, I, I just didn't want to say the things
Speaker: I was really thinking. Oh, you mean a bi- big hot dog?
Will: Yeah, a big hot dog
Speaker: But, um, I, look, the implication's very much like if you, you plug in, you stay there. So would you p- be prepared to- Oh ... fully commit?
Will: You plug in, you stay there. Yeah. I, I was just going for a, you know, like a- Yeah ... a, a Friday night experience, but, uh...
Speaker: Well, look, I think it's still... The, the challenge still comes in, but it's more like if you really, were you prepared to commit, because you basically say- Yeah
h- the challenge in this position is, it's challenging the position rather, that the best life is one with the most happiness or pleasure. Like- Yeah, okay ... it's sometimes called pure pleasure theory.
Will: No, see, I wouldn't- I'm a philosopher ... I, I, I don't wanna- No ... I don't wanna go into the pure pleasure machine because, um, I'm a reality junkie, man.
I, um- Oh ... I- You want real life. Yeah, [00:05:00] and I gotta earn the pleasures. Like, I feel like, yeah, you can cheat on a Friday night and say, "All right, I'm, I'm maxing some pleasures out by going into the experience machine," but- Yeah ... you have too much, it do- they don't count anymore. They're boring.
Speaker: Well, this is what he says.
He reckons most people would say no because it proves pleasure isn't the only thing we value, but also that, yeah, like you said, you kinda got to earn
Will: it. Yeah.
Speaker: That's his theory. That's what he reckons. And there are arguments though for people who would. So, I mean, one argument for yes is you can literally curate what seems like an eternally fulfilling or at least pleasurable life.
No suffering, heartbreak, boredom, no awkward job interviews, no letdowns. Perfect, consistent, awesome things you want. That in itself, if you don't think too deeply about it, sounds great, but I mean your- Mm-hmm ... objections come into play quickly. Um, you don't need to earn your skills. You can say, "I wanna play guitar as if, you know, Jimi Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen had a child, and I wanna play like that person."
Or be that person. All that stuff comes up. Oh [00:06:00] yeah, be that, you're right, be that person. Be the bastard child of those two men. Um, you know, you could organize all the photos on your iPhone into meaningful categories in, like, three seconds. That's
Will: exactly
Speaker: right. 'Cause, you know, we're all, we're all gonna do that.
We're all gonna organize our photos one day so that we can actually search them and make sense of them. That's,
Will: that's your pleasure-seeking experience.
Speaker: Oh, I, I might need to push pause. Um, another argument is, oh, your brain already lives in a simulation, man, because we're basically a lump of juice, and it only gets what we interpret via- Yeah, I get that.
I get that ... our senses and nerves and da, da, da, da, da. So this is just a more efficient version of that.
Will: But I mean, this is, this is still free riding though. Like, we're going into this tank- Mm. Yep ... and the tank has to... You know, this magic experience machine has to cost energy on- Yep ... on the system outside.
So- Yep ... you can't stay in there without doing some work to earn that.
Speaker: Or not everyone could be in there. Yeah. Someone would have to be outside cleaning out your poo poo wee wees from the- Or, or whatever ... amniotic fluids ... or stoking the
Will: nuclear power plant or something
Speaker: like that. Exactly. That keeps the machine going.
Shoveling uranium. [00:07:00] Shoveling uranium with the other blue collar workers. So that's, uh, a bit of a challenge. He reckons, his biggest argument for people don't wanna do it is, or wouldn't plug in, is 'cause people actually wanna do things, not just feel or seem like they've done them. Like, there's value in the struggle and the effort, et cetera.
Will: Totally. Totally.
Speaker: Yeah And we like, and, and one of the quotes is, "We wanna be, not just feel what we are." We wanna actually... You know, it's got to... You don't wanna simulate climbing to the top of Everest, you wanna kind of go, "I've done it." And by you, I mean definitely not me.
Will: Did you, did you, did you click onto going into the experience machine for forever?
Speaker: Uh, would I click on it? No, I don't think I would. I, I wish I could. I wish I could, but I too would have this authenticity issue. Uh, it'd be like, ah, eventually... And I mean, they, they, they call this out in The Matrix when they... What is it? You know, a previous version, Mr. Anderson, we made it where everything was perfect, but in the end everyone went crazy and started eating each other 'cause it was too perfect.
So The Matrix, I was gonna say beat us, but no, it didn't. It came years after this
Will: proposition. Or, or, or I [00:08:00] think the flaw in that is I don't think, I don't think even, um, a, an all-powerful simulation robot making a matrix could make things perfect- Yeah, yeah ... in the sense that, yes, it could say, okay, everyone has, um, all the food they want, all of the, all the leisure they want.
They have the perfect body- Mm ... or something like that, but there would always be some goods that can't be shared. Um, so- Yeah ... you know- Yeah ... who, who has the best view, who has the most status at the party, those kinds of things, and there will always be competition over them. I don't think a machine can solve that problem.
Yeah. When you live in a society, there's some stuff you can't share perfectly, so.
Speaker: That's true, right? You walk into a party and everyone's the hottest and the coolest and the most interesting, et cetera. That makes no sense. It doesn't
Will: work. It doesn't
Speaker: work. How does your brain do that?
Will: Yeah, so.
Speaker: I don't know how your brain does that.
Good point.
Rod: So 2016, US officials, for those of you who haven't heard of this, in Havana, which is in Cuba, they started to experience a bunch of biz- You've
Will: gotta say Cuba so people can actually hear
Rod: It is [00:09:00] Cuba. So a bunch of people there, quite a few, started to experience these bizarre symptoms. So they got like disabling cognitive malfunctions, they got balance issues, they got dizzy, insomnia, headaches.
It wasn't great. They didn't feel good.
Will: Okay.
Rod: And this apparently lasted for quite some time.
Will: Were those people any particular people?
Rod: They were US officials.
Will: Oh, okay.
Rod: We don't need to say more. They were just US official- They were officials. They were officially there on behalf of US business.
Will: In Havana?
Rod: In Habana.
Will: Yeah, okay.
Rod: In Cuba. As I say, for some of them it lasted quite a long time. And very quickly, of course, this situation or what they experienced was called or named informally Havana Syndrome, but it formally became known, because you've gotta make everything fucking boring if you're reporting on it, as Anomalous Health Incidents, AHIs.
Will: No, uh, no one calls it that.
Rod: Well, it's just like UFOs. They're not UAPs or whatever they're
Will: called. No, but I get, I get the problem with saying Havana Syndrome is they might all be different things. You know, Gary's got the poop and, uh, Michelle's got, uh- ... wobbly eyes.
Rod: Gary's got the poop. If I had a dollar for every time I heard that, Michelle had wobbly
Will: [00:10:00] eyes.
It's like- Gary's
Rod: got the poop ... it's like That's a T-shirt.
Will: But it's n- it's like you can't go and say Michelle's wobbly eyes and Gary's... Y- you can't say that's a
Rod: syndrome all
Will: together.
Rod: Yeah. You would say, "No, it's all the... No, it's all Havana Syndrome. No, it's Anomalous Health Incidents." So since 2016 when it first got recorded, apparently hundreds more US, and I love the quote, is "personnel", so officials and stuff Have reported cases of this from around the world.
And the example in this one report, the, all the, um, references are in the show notes, but more official reports, around the world is places like China, Eastern Europe, and quote, "Elsewhere." An example or two. So in India in 2021, a top aide to the current director at the time of the CIA reported all the classic syndromes of cognitive disabilities, insomnia, headaches, you know, discombobulations.
A retired Air Force lieutenant colonel said he was, quote, "Hit five times in his home in 2020." This was in northern Virginia, and he adds that a Russian family lived across the street. It was only last year. Bit racist. No, I'm not racist, just observant.
Will: It smells very [00:11:00] much like a thing a racist would say.
Like-
Rod: Russia isn't a race, though ...
Will: I'm feeling sick, and there are some people from a different country living across the street.
Rod: And they spoke like Borscht, they probably missed me.
Will: I, d- d- yeah.
Rod: But it was only apparently just last year, so a few years later, a doctor said his symptoms were the same as those reported in Havana 10 years earlier.
And a lot of cases basically associated with a perceived localized sound, but not all. But a bunch of them reckon they heard something. They heard something. So official investigations, they pointed up all kinds of theories on why it happens. So things like directed energy weapons.
Will: Yes.
Rod: Psychological dysfunctions.
Will: Yes.
Rod: Social
Will: influences. Why don't
Rod: we combine
Will: them?
Rod: Well, why don't we?
Will: I think it's all of them. I
Rod: think we should.
Will: Yeah.
Rod: We need one unit. Um, also potential toxic chemicals, you know, environmental bits, but no specific cause has been established, and there's no clear consensus on what it is.
Will: Yep.
Rod: And Havana Syndrome, as such, is not recognized by the medical community.
So since 2016, the intelligence community in the Americans and the Defense Department, defense with an S 'cause American, again. War. [00:12:00] War
Will: Department.
Rod: That's true, the War Department. They've tried to find out if the officials were victims of A directed energy attack by a foreign government, and this is apparently almost more important to them than whether there's a thing that does it.
It's like, is it evil foreign governments doing it? Yeah, well- Can people, you know, nasty people who are against us- You
Will: know, if a guy on the street in Havana had a directed energy weapon.
Rod: That'd be a problem.
Will: Yeah, but not, not so worrying. Like if-
Rod: I think it'd be very worrying. Like, he's just walking around zatching people.
Will: A malicious teenager has invented a directed energy weapon.
Rod: With a fat cigar, 'cause it's Cuba.
Will: A teenager?
Rod: Yeah. Laws are different there. There's concerns about do other... Like, there's, there's a bunch of, a constellation of things. Is it one thing? Could it be caused by machines of some description or devices, and especially do evil foreigners, you know- Yeah, yeah
have these devices?
Will: Are there Russians across the street?
Rod: Exactly, in a, um, Virginia. So flashing forward 2022, interim report from a CIA assessment said a foreign country was probably not behind Havana Syndrome. So CIA 2022, [00:13:00] probably not. Probably not. Probably not. Few weeks later, a, quote, "major panel of government and non-government experts produced a report commissioned by the Director of National Intelligence and the Deputy Director of the CIA," and that report said, "Pulsed electromagnetic energy, particularly in the radio frequency range, plausibly explains the core characteristics of reported AHIs."
Will: Really?
Rod: Although it acknowledged there are many unknowns. So a few weeks later, almost the same kinds of people said, "Oh, actually, yeah, it's possible."
Will: Well, no, no, that's two different things there. Mm. One foreign government and one is pulsed energy weapons.
Rod: Yeah, and that, but they kind of confound a little.
Will: Oh, I get it. It's weird, again, to have the teenager out there with a
Rod: pulsed- Can, can it happen at all? And also, and/or also if it can, do others have it?
Will: Yeah.
Rod: And they're already within a f- within a month or two- But, but that's classic- ... they're, they're fighting ...
Will: classic, you know, Defense Department is we're more worried about other people's capability- Yeah
than knowing what it is. Yeah. Like, that's the, the key thing.
Rod: But then the intelligence community come in going, "We kinda wanna know what it is too," and they, they, none of it says 'cause we want it, but of course they do. Um, so this is the first time apparently a report was issued publicly [00:14:00] by the US government acknowledging the symptoms could be caused by man-made or external events.
Will: Okay.
Rod: That was 2022, but again, it acknowledges information gaps exist. So that's 2022. Now, early 2023, the full intelligence community puts out a report, and the unclassified version says this: "There is no credible evidence that a foreign adversary has a weapon or a device that causes AHIs, anomalous health incidents, Havana Syndrome."
They cited secret intelligence data and open source information about foreign weapons and research programs, so they're like, "Nah, no evidence, no evidence."
Will: Yeah, no evidence.
Rod: Calm down, fellas.
Will: Absence of evidence don't mean evidence of absence, mate.
Rod: Whoa. That's something to do with unicorns. Yeah. That was '23.
Now, this year, The Washington Post puts out a report. A Norwegian government scientist has been secretly working on a pulse energy weapon. An approximation of the fabled, quote, "Havana syndrome gun," which may or may not even exist. The weapon was described as a device capable of emitting powerful pulses of microwave energy.
Will: Is ... Just to [00:15:00] pause for a sec. Hmm. Is this Norwegian scientist, like, back engineering this, or is he, like, he's been doing this for 30 years and-
Rod: Well, that, that will come out. All
Will: right, all right, all
Rod: right. The report says in 2024, so the report came out, the Washington Post report is this year, but talking about something happening in 2024.
The, quote, "unnamed scientist" was skeptical that such a device could do what was claimed.
Will: Okay.
Rod: So your pulse weapon that makes people freak out, get confused, have headaches, get dizzy- Hmm ... blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And in fact, he apparently had a really strong reputation as being a, quote, "leading opponent of the theory that directed energy weapons can cause the type of symptoms associated with AHIs."
He's like, "This is a load of horseshit." Yeah. "There's no way in hell," but with Norwegian language. What
Will: the hell is a directed energy weapon?
Rod: It's kinda like you can point your little dish bean thing at an individual or a small group- And
Will: it sends like microwaves.
Rod: Yeah, it does the woop, woop, woop, woop, woop.
Will: But, but in microwave form?
Rod: Absolutely.
Will: Or what? What, what is the energy?
Rod: It's, it's, it's powered by energies. Microwave does seem to [00:16:00] come into it a lot, but I think microwave, in fact, is a little bit of a catch-all as well. That's my suspicion.
Will: Hmm.
Rod: So anyway, this guy, unnamed scientist, serious- I
Will: mean, I mean, I've just gotta say-
Rod: Yeah, yeah.
You should ...
Will: in physics sense, a normal rifle is a directed energy weapon- Oh, that's true ... 'cause we're, we're, we're pushing kinetic energy-
Rod: Well, this is no physical projectile ... in a direction. So we're just talking the waves, not- Yeah, okay ... there's no physical object-
Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Rod: okay ... being passed on.
Will: Yeah, so also is loud sound.
Rod: Yeah, and that could be a directed energy weapon. Or a laser. Ooh, a la- you mean laser?
Will: Yeah, that's directed energy.
Rod: So this is more like your, your microwaves and stuff? A thing that goes wub, wub, wub, wub, wub, wub, wub, wub, and then stuff happens.
Will: Does it have to go wub, wub,
Rod: wub? It absolutely does, otherwise it won't work.
So he thinks, "Well, what, how am I gonna find out if it works? I'll test it on me."
Will: Of course. Adding to our ream of, of great scientists testing things on themselves. It's
Rod: what you do. Like, "I've got no idea. I'll, I'll just give it a crack."
Will: Ah, what a history.
Rod: I know. A noble and long history.
Will: Indeed, a noble history.
Rod: Mm-hmm. So how'd it go? He wanted to prove it was
Will: harmless. Fucking bullshit. Where, where did he shoot himself?
Rod: In the head.
Will: In the [00:17:00] head. In the head. I am not sh- I'm shooting myself in the cu- the buttocks. I am-
Rod: Yeah, the idea is to fuck with your brain, so he aimed at the brain.
Will: No, I'm not doing that.
Rod: Well, your buttocks, it's not the brown note gun.
Will: I, well, I just want ... What if it works really well?
Rod: I wish it did, 'cause seriously- It's- ... I was trawling all the different reports- ... ramming his brain ... for symptoms and like none of them said shoot yourself.
Will: I-
Rod: Which is extremely disappointing.
Will: I mean, I ... Look, who wouldn't have a go of that? But-
Rod: Me. I don't need to shoot myself.
Not, not without meaning to.
Will: No, but
Rod: it's science. But- Shoot yourself for science.
Will: I j- I'm just saying.
Rod: That's the next Science Week. I'm just saying. "Here's a booth. Here's a booth."
Will: National Science Week did ask us to come in, so maybe- But never
Rod: shoot yourself for science.
Will: Here, we get the Havana Syndrome directed-energy weapon and, and-
Rod: This is the second T-shirt this episode has yielded.
Shoot yourself for science.
Will: But I just think, why shoot it straight at your brain? '
Rod: Cause it's what it's for, brain scrambles.
Will: That's so dumb.
Rod: So he did. So apparently four people with knowledge of the event spoke to The Washington Post and said, "Oh, [00:18:00] shit yeah, it worked." He, there are many reports, but the, the summary is, scrambled the man's brains, brought on a host of neurological symptoms associated with Havana Syndrome.
Oh
Will: my God.
Rod: Like, he fucked himself up.
Bang. Beepity, beepity, beepity,
Will: beepity, beepity. Oh. Oh, look, you know, you know, we, we have said before, in s- in many ways, scientists can be the world's smartest dumb people.
Rod: They are, and God bless them all. And thank you unnamed Norwegian scientist for doing this.
Will: I'm sorry to laugh at... Y- I don't know if this- It's
Rod: hilarious
Will: I, I-
Rod: He knew what he was doing ...
Will: I d- yeah, it's not misfortune. No. It is not misfortune- No ... if, if you point a directed energy weapon at your own brain.
Rod: And if you're the kind of guy who goes-
Will: Oh, wow ... "
Rod: There's no way this works. It's a load of bullshit. Let me prove it. Beepity, beepity, burper there." Gone. You
Will: could, you could have literally shot yourself for science, and it would've been-
Rod: Yeah
Will: safer.
Rod: Yeah. So he fried his brain. I don't think permanently, but he fucked himself up, and one of the four people who, you know, had knowledge of the event and spoke to Washington Post said, [00:19:00] quote, "I don't know what possessed him to go and do this. He was a bit of an eccentric."
Will: No.
Rod: No. So this incident, this, this whole, let's call it an experiment just for fun, probably inspired at least two trips to Norway by CIA and US Department, uh, State Department people.
Will: Oh, who doesn't wanna go to Norway though?
Rod: That's true. But they're also like, you know, official, official business.
Will: Ah, sure. Flash
Rod: the badge.
Will: Sure. Flash the badge. I hope he's like in, in somewhere way up in the fjord land and there's trolls.
Rod: Exactly. Like that. And, and everything's made out of wood, and it's 1,000 years old.
Will: Yeah, it's, it's, it's like all wood. Yeah. So much, so much wood and granite where you are.
Rod: Yeah, yeah, and you gotta eat your way through the front door. And it's the only way to stay warm when you're inside and eat enough fuel inside you So yeah, apparently, um, this might have been connected to news that dropped also in 2024.
The Department of Homeland Security had an operation to buy, quote, "A pulsed radio weapon for eight figures." So they spent some money. So all this seems to interweave. They went to find out what happened with this Norwegian device. They're not saying they bought it from the Norwegians, just that they also, at a similar time, did a [00:20:00] little operation to buy a device that maybe does this stuff.
So the, the Washington Post government sources, they note that a, a successful production of a weapon in the US allied Norway does nothing to prove that foreign adversaries are conspiring to use direct energy devices out in the open. So just 'cause an ally may have built one-
Will: Yeah ...
Rod: doesn't mean foreign people are coming and attacking us, the US, with one.
Will: Yeah, sure.
Rod: So don't worry.
Will: Sure.
Rod: Stay calm. Oh yeah, but the Norwegian machine was not identical to the one the US actually ended up buying.
Will: Mm-hmm.
Rod: And in fact, it was, quote, "Built on classified information suggesting it was probably derived from blueprints or other material stolen from foreign governments."
So they fucking nicked it from someone else. What?
Will: Built the device- Norwegians ...
Rod: then he shoots himself in the brain. So the, the US are like, "Ugh."
Will: Did you see after, after the, Trump kidnapped the Maduro, the president of Venezuela. The
Rod: discombobulator.
Will: The discombobulator. Yeah. Like, like is- Yeah ... d- is this the discombobulator?
Rod: Like- Allegedly, the discombobulator only works on your [00:21:00] electronic devices.
Will: Oh.
Rod: Not the brain.
Will: I love, I, I, I've gotta, I've got to admire the man's ability. It's not-
Rod: To actually pronounce that word at least once?
Will: No, discombobulate is a great word.
Rod: No, for him to say it more than at all.
Will: No, no, no. That fits in his mouth.
I can see the shape of his mouth and-
Rod: Doos-ree-bibberin-bibber.
Will: No, his mouth is designed to say discombobulate.
Rod: Sure. He's made out of discombobulation.
Will: I don't know. I don't know. But I just, he stuck to the moment there when, when- Oh, yeah ... when he's like, and he's like, "So what does the discombobulator do?"
Rod: I'm not allowed to tell you.
Will: No, he says, "It discombobulates."
Rod: Yeah. Other than that, I can't give you any more information. Fucking hell. That would be national security.
Will: That's
Rod: so good. Yeah. So they're now saying that the, the Norwegians probably, let's say, acquired the plans to build the device that the scientist shot himself with Norwegians
from elsewhere.
Will: The Norwegians
Rod: That was in 2024. So January, 2025, which is at the end of Biden's tenure, two spy agencies in the US updated their early conclusions about this machine, or these kinds of machines, and said some of the incidences involving AHIs [00:22:00] could be the work of foreign adversaries.
Will: Okay.
Okay.
Rod: So they're flipping-flopping.
Will: Yeah. They don't
Rod: know. But, but then some who are aware of the Norway test says it doesn't prove these devices or these syndromes are the work of foreign adversaries wielding secret weapons similar to the Norwegians. And one of them said, "Look, the Norwegian one, it's not exactly the same as classic AHI or Havana syndrome, so don't worry about it.
It's gotta be something else." This way, that way, this way, that way, this way, that way. So to round it off, a retired military surgeon, Air Force general, and he oversaw biological threats on the White House National Security Council under Biden.
Will: Okay.
Rod: He says, "I think there's compelling evidence that we should be concerned about the ability to build a directed energy weapon that can cause a variety of risks to humans," but he declines to comment on the Norway experiment, so that's still controversial.
So in summary, here's what the official position seems to be: we believe victims aren't feeling good, but we won't confirm whether or not they have Havana syndrome. Yes, it's possible external factors cause these symptoms like those in the AHIs, but we don't know for sure whether those external factors are or what they [00:23:00] are and who did them, and we don't want people freaking out and thinking foreign agents can do this, although maybe they can, but not for sure, and please ignore the fact that we bought a machine from somewhere else.
I think that's the best summary I can give you. Yeah.
Will: Okay. Okay.
Rod: So Havana syndrome may or may not be Norwegian. It may or may not be anything. Maybe a machine can do it, maybe it can't, and it could be owned by foreign actors, but it might not, but it probably is, but maybe it isn't.
Will: Thank you for the clarity.
Rod: I'm here to help.
Will: I love a vent. Yeah. I love a rant. I love... Well- Yeah ... I, sometimes. Yeah. Someti- sometimes. You...
Rod: Not, not when it's other people?
Will: Well, no. So I occasionally get people to rant for a teaching exercise. I, you know, think of something that makes you angry. And, um, sometimes- Do
Rod: they always choose you?
Will: I hope they do.
This fucking class. I ho- I hope they do. No, I don't hope that. I don't hope that. No, but I'm like, "What makes me angry?" And it's like, oh, the person that swims in the wrong lane at the swimming pool. So
Rod: y- Whoa, serious fury ...
Will: I think you are more advanced in your ranting.
Rod: Oh, I get angry about so [00:24:00] much stuff.
Will: Oh, I'm glad.
Rod: So much stuff. I, I have a gift. It's one of many, and I could share it with the world, but not today. Yeah, I love it, too. I love ranting. I like... For me, ranting, blowing off steam, et cetera, feels so good. It's like that, uh, classic line, it's like a sneeze, only better. It's just- Hmm. You don't know that
Will: line? I thought that line was about something else.
Rod: It can be both.
Will: Like a sneeze only be- I mean, what could that possibly be?
Rod: If you could sneeze as we do-
Will: Yeah ...
Rod: from lower down the body.
Will: Oh, there you go.
Rod: Us boys do do that. So science is here to ruin that. 2024, a meta-analysis, a review by a bunch of people at Ohio State University.
Will: So they needed to do a meta-analysis on this?
Rod: Oh, yeah.
Will: Like, like-
Rod: It's a big bastard, too.
Will: It's a big bastard This is like, "We're commissioning a big study. We need to know-
Rod: Yeah ...
Will: finally for all time, does venting actually help?"
Rod: Yeah. Good on him. I mean, who can blame him? I mean, look, the top level story is not only is there little evidence that venting helps, but in some cases it probably increases your anger.
Does that ... So can you feel your rage rising? No.
Will: Well, okay.
Rod: Disappointed?
Will: You're dwelling in it. [00:25:00] This is the problem. This is the problem. You go, "Ah, you've really fucked me off, and now I'm gonna rant about it" and that's like-
Rod: That's not wrong. You're not wrong ... you know,
Will: I, I think the Buddha says maybe do something different.
You know, what'll, what'll-
Rod: Jesus said, "Show him your butt cheek," and the Buddhist said, "Eat one grain of rice."
Will: Yeah, and I don't think either of them said rant about it.
Rod: No, and then paddle lizard.
Will: Come to a little bit of science for your-
Rod: Religious education ... religious
Will: education.
Rod: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scholastic knowledge of the epistles as written by the apostles.
Did they write? I don't know. The
Will: epistles of the apostles, yes.
Rod: Yeah.
Will: That's what they did.
Rod: So yeah, they found that in some cases your venting, your raging, et cetera, could increase anger, make you worse. So as senior author and communication scientist, what ... This is a great name, Brad Bushman. He said, "Venting anger might sound like a good idea, but there's not a shred of scientific evidence to support the catharsis theory."
Not a shred. How can you be against catharsis? Like, come on.
Will: But you're not getting catharsis. That's the point. That's the point.
Rod: Well, yeah, or the, the method via which you allegedly get to catharsis and this-ism-
Will: So how- ... is flawed ... so he's doing a meta-analysis. This is all sorts of studies where people have already [00:26:00] studied this.
Rod: Yeah.
Will: So.
Rod: But they've not banged all the data together- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... and looked at it on a different angle. So the first author is a person called Sophie Kiatovic. She says, "I want to debunk the whole theory of expressing anger as a way of coping with it."
Will: I want to.
Rod: I know.
Will: Oh, there you go. That's the- It's
Rod: a little preloaded.
Will: Yeah, it is a bit.
Rod: We wanted to show, now it's gone to we, that reducing arousal, and actually more to the point, the physiological aspects of arousal is really important.
Will: This is brought to you by Big Chill Out.
Rod: This is a big chill. Oh, wow.
Will: Big chill. Big chill is-
Rod: Not the movie. We don't want to get sued. No,
Will: but they're saying calm down.
Not like-
Rod: But physiologically. So I mean, this comes up, but the, the idea that people have not really focused a lot on the physiological. They focus a lot more on cognitive sides of anger.
Will: Oh, okay.
Rod: So the meta-analysis, 154 studies on anger, all- congealed. Over 10,000 participants all up. Mm-hmm. Ranges of ages, range of genders, range of cultures, ranges of your ethnicities.
And apparently a lot of previous research focuses, as I said, more on cognitive rather than the physiological aspects of anger. So their analysis focuses on, they say, both [00:27:00] arousal increasing and arousal reducing activities. Now, for those of you who are like me and listening with a teenage boy brain, they don't mean arousal as in turgidity in the areas of the pants.
They mean physiological getting psyched up or psyched down physiologically. So things like this, running and boxing, physical arousal goes up.
Will: Yeah, okay.
Rod: Yoga and meditation, arousal goes down.
Will: Oh.
Rod: That's the bottom line.
Will: Depends how you do yoga, man.
Rod: Yeah, it is generalized. We'll get into details of yoga, obviously.
There's, in about minute 48, I'm gonna read all the data tables to you. Jesus Christ. No, you're gonna love it. You'll love it. This is very interesting data. So the findings say the key to curbing anger is to engage in activities that decrease your arousal levels. So the bottom line was, rather than try to vent anger, try to undermine it by turning down the heat.
I know. Calming tactics are better But, but doesn't this
Will: go against... I mean, there's been a bunch of studies that have shown that, you know, you hit your thumb with a hammer-
Rod: Yeah ...
Will: that swearing and venting then can reduce the pain
Rod: Pain, yeah
Will: So there, you know,
Rod: so- But anger doesn't h- there's no pain in anger
Will: Oh.
Rod: It's completely different. So venting likely increases your arousal, and that's therefore bad. You want to take away anger's s- physiological [00:28:00] fuel. Now this reminds, I got to say, when I was reading this I was like, this reminds me of a thing. When I was a kid, we were told if you get a sunburn, the trick is after you've had the sunburn, get in the shower and turn it up to as hot as you can possibly stand-
Will: I'm sorry
Rod: to take the sting out ...
Will: I'm sorry, but '70s folk science on- I
Rod: know ...
Will: sunburn-
Rod: I know ...
Will: was not good. No one is... Like, everyone- Take the sting out ... in the '70s in Australia died of skin cancer We
Rod: did
Will: You were all dead of skin cancer
Rod: No, fourth degree burns Takes
Will: the skin out.
Rod: Jesus Ta- takes the sting. So we'd get in the shower and we'd slowly turn it up and up and up and up as you- Oh
can. And you'd get out of the shower and go, "I don't hurt as much" which is probably 'cause you've just murdered all your nerve endings Yeah, exactly Yeah, yeah. But it sounds like a similar thing, so I started thinking this venting your anger might be some version of that. You're actually putting more heat into your anger rather than take it out.
I am starting to wonder if the, uh, sunburn thing is true now too. You still do it? I, it just struck me. I don't get sunburn now, I'm not an idiot. I can't feel it if I do. So back to Bushman. Bushman, he says, "Certain physical activities that increase arousal may be good for your heart, but they're definitely not the best way to reduce your anger."
Will: So going for a run, good for your heart, doesn't-
Rod: Do you know what? They actually said one of the most [00:29:00] arousal-boosting activities that does not reduce anger particularly is jogging. Yeah. Jogging's particularly
Will: bad
Rod: I,
Will: I confess, I confess there have been moments where I'm like, "Mm, I'm gonna go for a run" and, uh- You come back going-
I get to the end of the run, I'm like, "Now I've proved it." "Now
Rod: I wanna kill more people." "Now not only are my family's dead, but those fuckers across the road as well." Jogging would make me angrier too, 'cause I hate jogging. Every time I do it, everything hurts. Things that aren't even part of my body start hurting when I try and jog.
I can sprint, I can sit, I can row. You
Will: can sprint?
Rod: Oh, yeah. Fucking fast.
Will: I need to see this.
Rod: Only one step 'cause- I
Will: will pay some money to see this
Rod: How much?
Will: You don't know yet.
Rod: How much? Wait. 'Cause the knee surgery afterwards.
Will: I can't pay for that
Rod: This... I fight with my wife. We don't fight, we- I'll give you at least 40
Will: bucks
Rod: my wife and I have a disagreement. She thinks, she's positive she's faster than me over the short distance, and I'm like-
Will: Why is this?
Rod: W- ... "There's no way. There's no way you are. I'm fucking fast" I love
Will: this. Like, guys inherently go, "I'm faster
Rod: than you" "
Will: I'm faster than you" "
Rod: I'm faster than you" And she goes, "400 meters" I said, "No, I couldn't even walk 400 meters" but if we're talking short distance, I'd totally dab her
Will: Okay, okay.
Listeners, I think at some point we need to crowdfund seeing how fast Ro can run against [00:30:00] his wife. But
Rod: the crowdfunding must also include-
Will: Yeah, knee surgery ...
Rod: knee surgery
Will: That's the point. We've got to get to knee surgery
Rod: Yeah, we've got to get to kne- And- And damn good knee surgery ...
Will: 100 meters. 100 meters
Rod: Fuck no.
40 The classic
Will: dash
Rod: 40
Will: 40. What are you talking
Rod: about? I'm old. I'm old
Will: All right. And y- you two can establish the distance, but, uh-
Rod: What's even worse is not only will I be in absolute agony, if she wins, then I'm gonna be a cripple who's alone
Will: I am, I am betting so much money that she will win
Rod: No, she's slow.
Look at her Svanbjörg Kjartansdóttir, the l- lead author says, "It was really interesting to see that progressive muscle relaxation and just straight up relaxation in general, probably as effective as mindfulness- Ah ... meditation." I'm like, well, yeah. Some yoga can be more arousing, as you pointed out. So when you do your hot let's fight with knives yoga, more arousing.
Will: Okay.
Rod: Sitting around having a quiet breathe, less arousing. Calming activities reduced anger, whether it was in the lab or in the wild, doesn't matter on the demographics. So slow flow yoga, mindfulness, progressive muscle relaxation, diaphragmatic breathing, I love diaphragmatic [00:31:00] breathing, and taking time out.
Will: Okay.
Rod: So you imagine that you get furious, get in the corner and count to 10. Look,
Will: okay. Okay.
Rod: So- You try counting to 10. That makes me angrier too. I get stuck at eight because I'm so angry I can't even remember what comes next.
Will: Uh, no. I can get through that.
Rod: No.
Will: No, but okay, okay. Give me this then. Give me this then.
Yeah. So science in its best possible method here has m- has congealed all the data on all the studies- Mm-hmm ... to show that catharsis doesn't happen, that venting doesn't help you. Yeah. And I can totally bel- it's not reducing your physiological sign of anger, and maybe it's not doing things on the cognitive level.
Why do people do it, and why is there such a, it's a bias towards it or a, or a rec- So- It's a good question, isn't it? Is science wrong here, or is something else going on?
Rod: Well, I'm thinking it could be both, and I think we love metaphors, and taking the heat out kinda makes sense. Like, you're building up, you're angry- I think-
and you need that pressure thing, so blowing it out makes
Will: sense. I think it's actually people don't wanna be not angry. I think pe- I think these- Oh, I agree ... these researchers have got it completely wrong. Yeah. They're thinking, they're thinking venting is a way of getting rid of the anger. Instead, venting is about spreading the anger.
And this is- Yeah, and rubbing it- ...
Rod: this is just dumb ... all over your body and loving it even more. [00:32:00]
Will: Exactly. I
Rod: agree.
Will: Exact- No. No, and, and- Juicy, delicious anger ... to, to, to quote Australia, I think this is a Bluey episode, and it's just one of those ones where I know that- Is
Rod: this the racist one or the sexist one or the drug, uh, positive one?
Will: I don't know. I don't know which one this is. I know that, uh, you may not be up with Bluey. It's Australia's but the world's favorite, um, cartoon dog-based show. Anyway, there's a great moment where the dad says to the toddler, one of the toddler, "Are you sure you don't just want to be angry?" And I think- Hmm
that there are absolutely times, and this is what venting is, is like, no, anger is a gift. I am taking pleasure in this. The right
Rod: kind of anger is awesome. I become more eloquent and become mu- much more abusive, but in a
Will: very smiling- You turn into some sort of anti-Buddha. You're like, "
Rod: Ah." I do. I do. And I, and I'm like erudite.
But there's a curveball. They also say, they, they... And then they finish like this, "Ball sports and other physical activities that involve play can reduce arousal." Yeah, okay. So play.
Will: Yeah.
Rod: So you can reduce arousal during this physical exertion if it's fun, which brings to mind a study I talked at you about I think quite a long time ago, on the effect of heavy metal music on people.
[00:33:00] And at first I was saying, "You metalheads claim you listen to metal and it relaxes you. That's bullshit. We tested it. We took people who like metal, hate metal, and don't care. And it turns out, people who like metal when they listen to it do find it relaxing, and people who don't do- Don't. I'm shocked.
Will: Thanks, science.
Rod: Yeah, I know, but I'm thinking this is not dissimilar. So if it's fun, whatever fun is- I, I
Will: think the point,
Rod: I think- ... that might be better ...
Will: I think these researchers have missed the point. Point of venting is-
Rod: Publishing is the point.
Will: Yes, that's true. But the point of venting is not to relax. The point of venting is to do something vastly different.
Rod: I love it. I love a vent. I don't care, science, fuck you. I love it anyway. I'm gonna keep venting and raging until the day I croak
Speaker 20: Right, you've stuck around this long, folks. Are you a boring person? What do we know? So look, here's a journal I know Will and I read every issue, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, March 2022. Here's the title, Boring People: Stereotype Characteristics, Interpersonal Attributions, and Social Reactions.
University of Essex scientists, psychologists, they investigated the most boring people [00:34:00] stereotypes, and they looked at things like this: beliefs about the interpersonal attributes, so people's beliefs about them, their occupations, their interests-
Speaker 21: Mm-hmm ...
Speaker 20: and people's reactions to stereotypically boring people.
Speaker 21: Do you want me to guess some things?
Speaker 20: I'm gonna give you the most boring person in the world at the end of this.
Speaker 21: The most boring p- no, that's
Speaker 20: not fair. Not, not a name. Oh. Not like John
Speaker 21: Smith. I, I thought that was a bit unfair. All right.
Speaker 20: Well, John knows.
Speaker 21: Yeah. No, he doesn't.
Speaker 20: So they got 500 people across five experiments.
They examined stereotypical features of boring people that others tend to think about. So the first two studies, studies one and two, rated these. They focused on occupations of boring people. For example-
Speaker 21: I bet, I bet they're gonna go wrong here ...
Speaker 20: of course, data analytics- Nope ... tax- taxation-
Speaker 21: Nope ...
Speaker 20: accounting.
Speaker 21: Nope.
Speaker 20: They focused on hobbies, like sleeping, religion, and watching TV. Now,
Speaker 21: these are, these are, these are, these are, these are incorrect stereotypes. Keep going. I'm g- I'm gonna critique this. What is it? This is, this is, I-
Speaker 20: Oh, you're
Speaker 21: gonna- I'm, I'm rubbed the [00:35:00] wrong way ...
Speaker 20: uh, you, you do seem rubbed.
Speaker 21: I'm, I'm rubbed the wrong way.
Speaker 20: They talked about personal characteristics, which we'll get to in a tick, that people would ascribe to stereotypically boring people.
Speaker 21: Yeah.
Speaker 20: So things they found. Boring people, I kind of flagged this at the opener, they are seen or actually do, depending on how you interpret psychological studies that ask people for their opinions, these are seen as people who lack humor and opinions.
Like, boring people lack opinions, and I kinda see that, actually.
Speaker 21: Maybe, yeah.
Speaker 20: They tend to be negative.
Speaker 21: Uh, yes. Yep.
Speaker 20: Generally disliked.
Speaker 21: Yes.
Speaker 20: Perceived as being low competence, low interpersonal warmth. Boring people are seen as being less emotionally warm with others. Also, I didn't know this, it c- it can, being perceived as boring or actually being boring, it's difficult to say here, may increase your risk of harm, addiction, and mental health issues.
So they also as part of this study said, "Okay, the five most boring jobs according to these 500 people," data [00:36:00] analysts, I know you don't like that, accounting-
Speaker 21: Mm ...
Speaker 20: tax/insurance, cleaning, and banking.
Speaker 21: I totally accept that there is a stereotypical view- Mm ... of these jobs being boring, and perhaps they, they actually are boring for people inside.
Mm. I don't know. Mm. I, I, I think there is a vast difference between saying that person is boring because-
Speaker 20: Yes ...
Speaker 21: I, I would, I would step back and go, I have met boring people in my life-
Speaker 20: Have you? ...
Speaker 21: where... No, no, they stand out. They stand out, like- Listen, I'm gonna give you some tips here. Um, two tips. If you, if you're-
Speaker 20: If you start crying the moment they talk
Speaker 21: No, no, no, no, no, no.
The- these tips come in advance of these people. If you're ever at a party, and, and- Well- ... and the group of conversation gets down to three, you leave immediately.
Speaker 20: Yes.
Speaker 21: Leave immediately. Yeah, just
Speaker 20: in case.
Speaker 21: Just in case. Yeah, you never know. Just in case. You're like, "Sorry, uh- Yeah, yeah ... I, I can't be trapped with, with whoever that is.
I am not doing that."
Speaker 20: Unless, unless super hot
Speaker 21: Uh, [00:37:00] well, I'll come back to that You can
Speaker 20: be boring and hot.
Speaker 21: Look, look, yes. There, there are certainly times when you want to be in that situation, that's fine. Yeah. But if you are ambivalent about the, the, the people in that, in that conversation- Pull the ripcord.
Pull the ripcord. Pull the ripcord, yeah ... if you pull the ripcord, you just go, "I have to go and do a poo. Like, I've got, I've, I've gotta get out of here." And
Speaker 20: you say that.
Speaker 21: So number two piece of advice here is, and, and I think, uh, Triple J's The Sandman for this many years ago. It's stuck, it's stuck in my head for a long time.
Always carry a hanky full of coins in your pocket. Oh. And so if you're stuck in this situation, what you do is you're like, "I need to blow my nose," and you pull out your hanky to blow your nose, and the coins go everywhere, and you're like, "Ah, shit, I gotta go and chase after my coins." And then you, the, then that allows you to escape the situation.
So I'm just... Okay.
Speaker 20: There are other ways.
Speaker 21: There are other ways.
Speaker 20: Walk away.
Speaker 21: You can walk away.
Speaker 20: You're unhappy about these jobs being listed as
Speaker 21: the most boring. I don't, I don't, I don't think boring is anything to do with occupation, because- Hmm ... I, I've met boring people in the past who have fascinating jobs.
Yes. Like, awesome jobs where you go, "Damn, that is a job I would love to do." [00:38:00] You are doing something, and for my belief, it was compensatory. 'Cause what they're doing- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... is like, "I wanna get the most interesting job in the world-
Speaker 20: Because
Speaker 21: I'm meh ... because I am fundamentally not interesting." Now, I, I feel, I feel- Yeah, yeah, fair enough.
Fair enough ... I absolutely feel for these people, and I think, uh... Look, I, I, I, I don't wanna be an asshole here. I just recognise-
Speaker 20: For people at h- uh, Will's almost crying.
Speaker 21: I am. No, I, I think that it has nothing to do with occupation. It's about your interpersonal ability- Sure ... to relate to other people.
Speaker 20: Yes.
What about hobbies? Are hobbies an indicator of boringness?
Speaker 21: No, unless it's possibly choosing interesting hobbies so they've got something to talk about.
Speaker 20: So according to this study, when people are asked to list the most boring hobbies, the, the, the, the winners were sleeping.
Speaker 21: Okay, fi- that's not a hobby.
Speaker 20: Apparently for some it is.
Speaker 21: It's not a hobby.
Speaker 20: Religion.
Speaker 21: Again, not a hobby.
Speaker 20: Well. Watching TV.
Speaker 21: All right.
Speaker 20: I love watching TV.
Speaker 21: That is a very lame hobby.
Speaker 20: I'm boring. I, I'd never called it a hobby though. It's just like, well, if I'm not doing something else, I'm like, "Ooh." [00:39:00] Observing animals.
Speaker 21: Do you mean like bird watching?
Speaker 20: It just says observing animals. Look, a ferret.
Speaker 21: What all of these are, are hobbies that don't translate into good conversations. So-
Speaker 20: They don't. They
Speaker 21: don't ... if your hobby is, I don't know, burning down buildings, like, that turns into like- How the fuck
Speaker 20: did you know?
Speaker 21: Like, like that's a cool party story. It's like, "Okay, what I actually do on the weekend, I, I just wander buildings."
Why are you so tired, and your eyebrows
Speaker 20: singed?
Speaker 21: Wh- z- z- "I burn down a..." And it's like, "Wow, I've never said that." I, I would not be bored in that conversation. If someone's
Speaker 20: hobby- No,
Speaker 21: you might be a little frightened ... if someone's hobby is sleeping, it's like-
Speaker 20: Really? The fifth most boring hobby in the top five was mathematics.
Speaker 21: It's not a hobby.
Speaker 20: No, I don't think so either, but maybe for some it is. The result, though, if you want the overarching one, according to these numbers, the most boring person in the world is a religious data entry worker who likes watching TV and lives in a town.
Speaker 21: A town.
Speaker 20: A town.
Speaker 21: A town.
Speaker 20: I know.
Speaker 21: Like, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I, either screw this study or screw your telling of the [00:40:00] study, and it's, it's, I- No, it's the
Speaker 20: study.
Speaker 21: I just... I, I, I suspect- ... that they would b- they, they have every chance of being a super interesting person.
Speaker 20: Yes. Some TV's great, and you can talk about it. I just want to tell you
Speaker 21: one more bit, though.
Okay, okay, let's flip it around. Flip it around.
Speaker 20: Yeah, flip
Speaker 21: it around. I, I can tell. A religious d- Yeah ... data entry person who lives in a town. Was there another part to it?
Speaker 20: And likes watching TV.
Speaker 21: And likes watching TV. Okay. So also, like, they're doing data entry for the CIA, and they're religious. You know, th- they, they, they're a cult leader.
And, and-
Speaker 20: Yeah,
Speaker 21: exactly,
Speaker 20: the Zoroastrians or something like- Yeah, or... Yes ... shit you've never heard of. The Zoroastrians. You're
Speaker 21: like, "
Speaker 20: What the
Speaker 21: fuck?" Yeah.
Speaker 20: Yep.
Speaker 21: And, uh, yeah.
Speaker 20: The town is Roswell.
Speaker 21: Ah, there you go.
Speaker 20: Yep.
Speaker 21: And, I don't know, they watch TV upside down. I don't know. Well, they watch the same show as you. Like...
Speaker 20: Yeah, whatever you like, yeah. My favorite bit of this study, though, I, I agree with you, like, there are, there, there are some gaps, there are some dents, but there was a, there, the, they did the five studies i- within this overall project. The last two I enjoyed. We tested if people were willing to avoid [00:41:00] more actively the company of stereotypically boring people.
Mm-hmm. So do people avoid boring people? Which, yes, imagine that.
Speaker 21: I, I do- Imagine that ... but they're not the same as, as those boring people.
Speaker 20: Yeah. Well, some may be, but that's coincidence. My favorite, though, is they then ask people how much they would need to be compensated for being asked to hang out in the company of a stereotypically boring person.
What would it cost? How much would you need to be paid to hang out with this-
Speaker 21: So, so I'm gonna confess. I'm gonna confess. There, there is-
Speaker 20: Oh, you've got a number?
Speaker 21: N- no, I don't have a number. I don't have a number. But, uh, but I am thinking of some of the people who, uh, I have been trapped with at parties, and-
Speaker 20: Yeah
Speaker 21: it would be large.
Speaker 20: It
Speaker 21: would be large. It, it would be large. It would be-
Speaker 20: We're not talking a
Speaker 21: 20. No. It would be like, I, I want to escape this scenario with... Like, it's, it's the guy who got his arm trapped under the rock, and it's like, "Well, I am, I am gnawing my arm off because-
Speaker 20: And then what? I kept gnawing.
And then? Gnawing. After that, gnawing. What was it like? Horrible. And then the next day? Horrible.
Speaker 21: It, it gets easier [00:42:00]
Speaker 20: That's been my experience. So they asked these people, "Imagine you are asked to spend time hanging out with this person." They've got a, a vignette that describes the person. "Below you will find different periods of time you might be asked to spend with them.
Indicate for each period of time how much you would need to be paid in order to accept spending this amount of time with this person. Please indicate in US dollars."
Speaker 21: Fine, fine. What does it even mean? What does it even mean? Like, like for a currency that's real, I'll... Like...
Speaker 20: No, it's one of those Slimarians. I mean, fuck, I don't care.
So they got to the point, they, they... So they got these vignettes of boring, either, either super boring people, inter- immediately boring people, mega... or, or not boring people, and it ran from between one and seven days, and there are-
Speaker 21: Oh, seven days.
Speaker 20: Yeah. And there's not only one, but there's two different versions of the graph.
One is a log transformation. It doesn't matter. If the eggheads out there, you're welcome. So it turns out for high boredom people, one day the average amount was [00:43:00] 50 bucks.
Speaker 21: No.
Speaker 20: Four days was 100, and the average amount for seven days was-
Speaker 21: I'm sorry ...
Speaker 20: nearly 250.
Speaker 21: Four days worth of work for 100 bucks. These people are not- Well, this is-
measuring their time adequately ...
Speaker 20: not well at all. What do you get? No. Eh, like 80 cents an hour.
Speaker 21: Like, like I'm sorry, I'm not doing anything-
Speaker 20: To be bored shitless ...
Speaker 21: for four days.
Speaker 20: You don't get out of bed for less than-
Speaker 21: I,
Speaker 20: I- ... 10 bucks ...
Speaker 21: look, I appreciate there are people in the world who, who that, that is an awful lot of money, but I, I just gotta confess, this is four days- You ain't
Speaker 20: one of them
Speaker 21: this is four days worth of work. Like-
Speaker 20: Look, and it's not clear to me whether they mean 24/7 hanging out with them, you know, you gotta introduce them to your family. I, I don't know, but this is... What I love is they actually said, "Put a monetary value on it", and people did and would. So I mean, the, the wrap-up is, you know, dicking around aside, you know, being boring is actually kind of dangerous and has real life impact 'cause of the way people treat you.
So people who, uh, are considered to be boring or else they stereotype you [00:44:00] like, "I'm a data analyst" and they go, "I don't wanna talk to you anymore," it has social implications, it has mental health implications, et cetera. That's what they're trying to get at here. And so the, the, the bottom line summary, these results suggest that being stereotyped as a bore may come with substantially negative interpersonal consequences.
Speaker 21: Yeah. Stereotypes can get fucked.
Speaker 20: They can. Anyway, if, if you are boring and you're listening to this, you're clearly not boring. Or if you are boring and you're listening to this, just talk about this.
Speaker 21: No, we love you
Rod: that was your leftovers, I suppose, a reheated little bit of science for the week. Sorry again, that Will was away. I think maybe he's scaling the wrong side of Everest and that's why he was very hard to get in touch with. But if you liked the show or if you liked this revisiting of the show, remember to like, subscribe, share, et cetera.
And uh, if you have any ideas you'd like to send to us, you can still contact us at Cheers at a little bit of science.com. [00:45:00]
