Mosquitoes are learning how to ignore your repellents, cows can recognise human faces on TV, and Wi Fi can now identify you through a wall with the help of AI. This week, we bounce between animal brains, ocean weirdness, and technology that is getting a little too confident, which is a fun mix until you remember you live in the same world as all of it.
Mosquitoes, Conditioning, and the End of Feeling Safe Outdoors
We start with mosquitoes, because nature loves nothing more than evolving right on schedule. Research suggests mosquitoes can learn through conditioning, meaning they can start associating certain smells or cues with outcomes and adjust their behaviour. In some cases, that means they may even become less put off by repellents, or learn to push through the things we rely on to keep them away.
It is the kind of news that makes you want to throw your citronella candle into the sea. We spend decades building chemical defences, and the mosquitoes respond by doing what they have always done. Adapt, persist, and ruin your evening.
Cows Watching TV and Judging Your Face
Then we move to cows, who are apparently paying more attention than we give them credit for. Studies show cows can tell the difference between familiar and unfamiliar human faces, even when those faces are shown on a screen. Yes, cows can recognise you on television. Which is both adorable and slightly unsettling, because it means you cannot even hide behind pixels.
They also seem more interested in strangers, which feels deeply relatable. The familiar human brings food and routine. The unfamiliar human brings novelty and the possibility of drama. Cows, like the rest of us, are not immune to curiosity.
Remoras and the Cloacal Diving Situation
After that, we head underwater for a story that is hard to say out loud without laughing. Remoras, the suckerfish famous for hitching rides on larger animals, have been observed doing something called cloacal diving with manta rays. If you are not sure what that means, the key word is cloaca, and the rest of the phrase does not improve things.
Scientists are still working out what is going on here, and whether it is a mutual relationship or something closer to parasitism. Either way, it is a reminder that the ocean is full of behaviours that sound like a prank but are, unfortunately, real biology.
Wi Fi That Can See You, and the Slow Death of Privacy
Finally, we end with Wi Fi, which has decided it wants to be a surveillance tool. Researchers in Germany have shown that ordinary Wi Fi signals, paired with AI, can be used to identify individuals through walls with extremely high accuracy. Not because the Wi Fi is “seeing” you like a camera, but because your body changes the signal patterns in a way that can be measured and recognised.
It is impressive, and it is also the sort of thing that should make you sit up a bit straighter in your living room. The future where someone can tell who is inside a house without stepping through the door is not a distant sci fi concept. It is a research paper away from becoming a product.
So that is the week. Mosquitoes learning, cows recognising faces on TV, remoras being deeply inappropriate, and Wi Fi quietly turning into a wall penetrating ID system. Stay curious, stay sceptical, and maybe do not assume your home is as private as it feels.
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Animals That Learn
00:35 Mosquito Study Teaser
01:00 Show Intro And Segments
01:44 Arctic Trip And Flower News
02:41 Why Mosquitoes Bite
04:12 DEET Basics And Mysteries
05:13 Mosquitoes Adapt To DEET
06:06 Training Mosquitoes To Like DEET
09:12 Remoras And Host Hitchhiking
11:29 Cloacal Diving Explained
14:41 Can Cows Recognize People
15:07 Do Cows Recognize Us
15:59 Cows Watching Human Faces
16:50 What The Study Found
17:38 Mutant Super Pigs Explained
20:22 Where Is Your Self
21:34 Head Versus Heart Research
23:56 Touch To Shift Thinking
25:19 Wi Fi Privacy Shock
27:43 AI Identifies People Via Wi Fi
29:34 No Privacy Future Wrap Up
30:35 Final Recap And Sign Off
SOURCES:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2022.2044446
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/onanism
Speedy’s Big O video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tSfLKTTxtc
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ece3.73548
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0329529&ref=404media.co
-
[00:00:01] Rod: [00:00:00] So
lots of non-human can learn, lots of them. Primates, we know their list is endless. They can learn everything probably better than we can. Dogs, ish, maybe not better. Primates, we know dogs, sniffer dogs, guide dogs, support dogs, people,
you
chess.
chess. Crows are famous for solving problems and using tools, you
know,
getting a, I don't know, piece of meat out of a milk bottle
with
tweezers.
there was a cow, I told a story about that, which, Swiss cow that used a brew handle as a back scratcher.
That's
pretty impress. And
look,
I'm okay
with all this. I'm okay with [00:00:30] hearing about animals using tools, except when the animals are,
you
things
I
like to eat, ' cause then I feel bad about it.
But this week I saw a study about non-human learning something that really got me quite disturbed because the creature was mosquitoes
[00:00:41] Will: It's time for a little bit of science
[00:00:59] Rod: But not [00:01:00] too much.
[00:01:00] Will: I'm Will Grant, an associate professor in science communication at the Australian National University.
[00:01:05] Rod: I'm Rod Lamb's, say a uh, 30 year
psych veteran with the mind
of a teenage boy. And I'll once again prove this episode.
[00:01:11] Will: Well. Well, and today, as well as mosquitoes learning things, we've got, uh, animals having fun.
[00:01:18] Rod: We've
got fun for
animals.
[00:01:20] Will: I've got another animal that... But
it's, uh...
well, now you know.
[00:01:24] Rod: Um, we ask or I asked the question: Where are you?
[00:01:27] Will: And I've also got some surveillance news for [00:01:30] you
[00:01:30] Rod: Are you allowed to tell me that?
[00:01:32] Will: you don't want to know it
[00:01:33] Rod: Uh, really? He was But I was having a happy day. It happy day. Flowers and buttercups
and lice music playing in fields,
Ah, and now ah ...
all being surveilled.
Fuck. Hey, I, tiny bit of news that I, that, yeah. um, I've just, I've just been in, in the Arctic. Yeah. Um, but I just wanna say what-
The Arctic Circle.
[00:01:51] Will: Yeah, well, that's the Arctic.
Not the Arctic. the Arctic.
[00:01:53] Rod: You have the Arctic.
You weren't at the pole.
[00:01:55] Will: No, the Arctic is the
[00:01:56] Rod: Did
you eat any dog livers, and did you go to the pole?
[00:01:59] Will: didn't go to the [00:02:00] pole, didn't eat dog liver. but, but but the Arctic is the Arctic Circle or the Arctic Ocean. They're the two things that are Arctic, and I was in both of them, so... And I was-
You were You were the, in the ocean?
Yes, I was
[00:02:10] Rod: in
your, swings in Speedo. In,
[00:02:12] Will: In my Speedos. did the dip?
You Did
the
dip? Yeah, I did the dip.
Um-
did Your whole body or just the dip?
No, my whole body.
[00:02:20] Speaker 2: Yeah,
no,
[00:02:21] Will: no, I was just gonna give you another tiny bit of science news that is, that is both that combination of depressing and not depressing. And someone was telling me, "Oh, do you know there's a lot more flowers [00:02:30] in Antarctica these days?" And I'm like-
"Yeah." "Yeah.
[00:02:33] Rod: Yes. Yay." And you can get a good tan.
You, "I don't want a lot more flowers. Was Mosquitoes are learning, are they?
So yeah. Look, technically we know this, they kill more humans than any other non-human.
[00:02:48] Will: Yeah, sure. But it's the things they carry. It's not
like
they're-
[00:02:50] Rod: Yeah, but they get blamed.
[00:02:51] Will: Yeah, get, blame. Yeah.
[00:02:52] Rod: And
there's a reason for that,
'cause
it's the things they carry, and they're not exactly discerning.
So
but anyway, that means keeping them away from this really matters.
[00:02:59] Will: [00:03:00] Yes.
[00:03:00] Rod: You don't want a mosquito on you.
So
to find their blood meals, mosquitoes, they're strongly attracted to odours.
physical
cues emitted from warm blooded hosts like us. So the odours are like carbon dioxide when we exhale it.
Okay. Yeah. Lactic acid in our sweat.
[00:03:13] Will: Yeah.
[00:03:14] Rod: And there are weird complex combinations of chemicals that are, you know, know, specific to certain people's or
differ between people. So some people are more attractive
to a
Aussie.
[00:03:21] Will: Yeah. Everyone has known some people always get bitten- and some people don't.
[00:03:25] Speaker 2: Are you,
are you
[00:03:26] Will: are you a bitten person or a-
[00:03:27] Rod: varied over the
years.
[00:03:28] Will: Oh, oh,
[00:03:28] Rod: At
the moment I'm back in the, [00:03:30] "Oh, they'll eat me."
[00:03:30] Will: I get bitten, but,
there's certainly other people get bitten way more than me.
[00:03:34] Rod: No, at the moment, although my house basically,
if
this was in sort of Southeast Asia, they'd tell me to burn everything because
e
everything in there creates little cups of water.
for things
[00:03:42] Will: Yeah,
In, in
fairness. luckily you're not in Southeast Asia for for that effect 'cause-
[00:03:46] Rod: yet.
[00:03:46] Will: Yeah ...
yeah.
[00:03:47] Rod: those
diseases are coming.
[00:03:49] Will: I always love those researchers who, you know, they're testing mosquitoes and stuff. Like, I don't even know what they're doing. And they stick their arm into
like
a,
you
know, like a fish tank fall through a hole.
And it's
[00:03:57] Rod: like,
they're
wearing
[00:03:57] Will: get sleeve. Yeah. And it's
like,
get bitten, [00:04:00] like literally a thousand mosquitoes all at once. And I was like, "Would you do that?"
[00:04:03] Rod: No.
[00:04:03] Will: Oh. '
[00:04:04] Rod: Because the level of itch would drive me... I, I,
peel my own face off.
[00:04:07] Will: suppress the noise.
[00:04:07] Rod: you like,
I
do not.
feel
[00:04:09] Will: Suppress the noise.
[00:04:09] Rod: I,
I've... The noise I can do,
but not that itch.
so if you can avoid mosies, you should, which means
things like affected repellants pretty critical.
And over
the last eight years the winner's been det. Yeah, In, in
nide.
de
[00:04:23] Will: de Yeah, we've heard of det. Yeah,
[00:04:24] Rod: De
So it's cheap, That lasts for hours. It's been super useful for a very long time.
But
[00:04:30] apparently we don't really know much
about it,
like
how it works or why Which I think is fun. 80 years of it and they're still like,
"well
Well, we
know it works,
but nah. "
[00:04:37] Will: Don't even know why.
[00:04:39] Rod: No, literally, they're
kind of like, "
So is it blocking the odour of the host? Is it toxic or repellent to the mosquito-" they like
or,
or other?"
[00:04:45] Will: Right.
[00:04:46] Rod: It's just like
well, it, "
It does stuff, so that's cool." People don't seem
seem to
die
[00:04:51] Will: Hooray. Hooray.
[00:04:52] Rod: For some reason it works. So in 2008 there was a study that said it looks like it blocks the response of sensory neurons to the [00:05:00] smell of hosts.
So basically it's probably confusing mosquitoes-
[00:05:04] Will: Okay ...
rather
[00:05:04] Rod: than repelling them.
[00:05:05] Will: Yeah. Okay.
[00:05:06] Rod: they
kind
go,
I "
can't smell
[00:05:07] Will: Can't smell anything here
[00:05:09] Rod: Yeah.
[00:05:09] Will: weird here.
[00:05:10] Rod: Yeah. So maybe I'll go elsewhere where it's less weird.
[00:05:12] Will: Yeah. Okay.
[00:05:13] Rod: And a couple years later, scientists found that some mosquitoes, just a little bit of them, they get exposed to deep and they're insensitive, and that's heritable.
So there is a certain-
[00:05:20] Will: Whoa ...
[00:05:21] Rod: biological response to We could Like you spray some
[00:05:23] Will: mosquito with the deep directly
[00:05:25] Rod: And there are some that go,
"Is is that all you got?"
[00:05:27] Will: Surely they're not gonna breed then. Like-
[00:05:29] Rod: No, they don't. No. [00:05:30] so you, breed. They can still find each other even though they'll be hungry.
Well, they or they won't. They don't care. You spray diet in the, they like, don't give a I'm still gonna eat
and
then I'm gonna have a baby." And I
[00:05:38] Will: thought the point was that diet stop them from eating 'cause they couldn't find-
[00:05:42] Rod: Well, most ... lunch ... at all. is, there's a of them- that are like, "I, I don't care."
Like that all you got?" And they bang the little mosquito chests. So biological responses apparently in there,
but they're also behavioural responses.
So as a state that said
mosquitoes
are exposed to deep once and then again after three hours were less against it.
Okay. exposed [00:06:00] once they go, "Fuck no." Three hours later they're like, "
Oh." I'm not "Fine." Yeah. Okay.
as bothered. So it
seems like maybe they can temporarily get used to it.
Which is sweet. But then there's this been a French study and it unearthed a
possibly very serious issue Be deep. You can train Mosies to be attracted to
it.
[00:06:13] Will: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:14] Rod: I'm
I'm
like, "
What? That's not fair."
[00:06:16] Will: Why would you do that?
[00:06:17] Rod: Well, '
cause-
[00:06:18] Will: would you do that?
They
[00:06:18] Rod: could
themselves.
[00:06:19] Will: I mean, aside from being French researchers, why would you do that?
[00:06:22] Rod: They
love mosquitoes.
dipped in a little, uh, chocolate. So
here's
what they did,
So
first they got mosquitoes in tiny
little
into, mosquito cages,
and they got a, [00:06:30] I love this, a food target, which is a warm bag of
blood. Then you move it towards them, and then you see their probos, prosky,
[00:06:37] Will: They get in the twitch? ...
[00:06:37] Rod: pros to puss.
they can't--
They
start moving and twitching, it basically
it's
an attempted biting response.
see 'em go,
[00:06:42] Will: Yeah, Yeah, that's gonna be good.
[00:06:44] Rod: Yeah, oh, I I want a bit of that." So that's the kickoff, like they definitely respond to-
[00:06:47] Will: Yeah ...
[00:06:47] Rod: your warm bag of bloods. We all would, not in the same way.
[00:06:50] Will: Uh, I don't mind.
[00:06:51] Rod: you
move a warm bag of blood towards me, I wouldn't be licking my lips and going, mm-hmm.
[00:06:54] Will: That depends what type of blood.
Good
[00:06:56] Rod: point. type O Universal. Everyone
loves it. Fuck. Uh, so
then [00:07:00] what they did was
they,
did they, what they call five training programmes. It's Basically classical conditioning. Basic classical conditioning. So yeah, uncondition,
unconditioned
stimulus, warmth probably of the blood.
[00:07:09] Will: Yeah, so the-
Warmth
[00:07:09] Rod: notion of warmth.
[00:07:10] Will: Yep.
[00:07:10] Rod: So they already know to react to that. The condition stimulus is the deep spray.
[00:07:15] Will: Okay.
[00:07:15] Rod: And the reward is you get a bit of blood to scoff.
[00:07:17] Will: Okay.
[00:07:18] Rod: So
here's what they
found. Mosquitoes that were exposed to deep before being offered the bag of blood didn't wanna go near it.
[00:07:23] Will: Yeah.
[00:07:24] Rod: But those that had a squirt of deep while they were already fending on the blood, much more likely to go for deep and crusted.[00:07:30]
[00:07:30] Will: Ah, so it's,
[00:07:31] Rod: So
[00:07:31] Will: they're taking this as a bit of a reward.
[00:07:32] Rod: Yeah.
Yeah. They've smelled the deep, They've had
what? they're
feeding, they smell deep, and they're like, " deep means yum yums."
Which is not great.
[00:07:37] Will: What other animals, like of the dopey sort of animal, can you do this sort of classical conditioning
on? There's seven. I mean, I know, I mean classically your dogs, classically your humans. But can you, how far down the- insects. you do worms?
[00:07:51] Rod: What are these are arthroscopes Yeah, exactly. You, like, can you do this to bacteria?
I tried.
[00:07:56] Will: Can you?
[00:07:56] Rod: But you probably could
I don't know.
It sounds like something, it [00:08:00] obviously goes a long way down the-
[00:08:01] Will: Trees? ...
[00:08:02] Rod: intelligence. Yes. Trees will definitely move towards certain things if you put the bell.
[00:08:09] Will: But you'll, that tree talk and stuff, like maybe that's the next frontier.
It's like we're doing-
[00:08:13] Rod: wide
[00:08:13] Will: classical conditioning, yes, on the wood one, it
[00:08:16] Rod: wouldn't surprise me.
I mean,
um, so this research you were talking about,
you
sticking
whole arm in. So one researcher put their hands at risk. So they put both their hands in,
You
your
mosquito cage. One was covered in deep and one was not-
after they'd been conditioned.
50%
of the trained mosquitoes[00:08:30]
went
from the hand that was covered in deep. no problem.
[00:08:32] Will: Yeah.
[00:08:32] Rod: A hundred percent of the untrained ones didn't go anywhere near They went to the clean head. Okay.
So there's a pretty strong kind of-
[00:08:37] Will: So we can train them to not care about det. which again, again-
[00:08:41] Rod: Why would you?
Well, I reckon you're gonna accidentally be doing that somewhere.
[00:08:45] Will: Yeah. No, I, of course you are. it's get passed
[00:08:47] Rod: on. and, and
[00:08:47] Will: gonna get past, And, and I get that this is gonna tell us things about- about how deep might work a bit.
[00:08:51] Rod: Look, it's a concern. And look, the bottom line was, of course, at the end of it, they go, "Look, this is in lab conditions.
We didn't do all these different concentrations of deep, et cetera, et cetera, [00:09:00] et cetera. But the implications of deep potentially being disconnected from a mosquito going, new, I don't think that's great.
[00:09:06] Will: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:07] Rod: I
think that's great. I'm against.
[00:09:08] Speaker 2: I'm
[00:09:08] Will: against, two.
[00:09:09] Rod: Yeah. Thanks science. All
[00:09:10] Speaker 2: Alright. Well,
[00:09:12] Will: I've got, um, I've got some more animal news for you. Fuck, yeah. Um-
[00:09:16] Rod: This
is a very animal-
[00:09:17] Will: Oh, it's a Very
[00:09:18] Speaker 2: very animal heavy.
[00:09:18] Will: Very animal heavy. Um,
yours started with light. Uh, this one,
[00:09:23] Speaker 2: there's
[00:09:23] Will: light animals here.
This,
this one comes from our friends at the Journal of Ecology and Evolution. They begin this article by saying, [00:09:30] "Despite being well known, for associating with a wide array array of transient marine megafauna," sharks and shit and, and big fish manta
[00:09:38] Speaker 2: Big
[00:09:38] Will: big fish. " The scope of an interactions underlying host relationships with
Remo remain largely understudy.
[00:09:44] Rod: the fishy
they the
[00:09:45] Will: fish
sucker fish,
[00:09:46] Rod: they eat shit off big fish?
[00:09:47] Will: Yeah, they're the sucker fish.
Yeah.
so there's a family,
ecad, Uh- Still
[00:09:51] Rod: me
[00:09:52] Will: but,
uh, we don't need to worry about that.
Often called Remos or sucker fish.
so the key question is that, um,
you
know, these sucker fish,
they [00:10:00] suck onto, some sort of host, a manta ray or a shark or something like that. Yeah. They go for a ride. They can cause damage to the host. You know, they can, they can-
[00:10:08] Rod: because they link on with their mouths
[00:10:10] Will: they link on with their mouths. Their mouths have got, like, a little vacuuming tooth type situation. Like a bit of vacuum and a bit of tooth.
[00:10:15] Rod: It's fair to
say
all good rides handle on your mouth. that's
That's why he's to go to fun look, generally the animal kingdom is much happier using their mouth for things than we are. They're Like-
[00:10:25] Will: They're less ish things. us ...
[00:10:26] Speaker 2: I get... Indeed. Indeed. You know? I wonder if you had, like, [00:10:30] Posable thumbs coming out of your mouth, they would do more?
[00:10:32] Rod: I used to when I was born.
[00:10:33] Will: Yeah, indeed. And
[00:10:34] Rod: they said, " take them or leave them," on my plate, said, "No, look- ... it's
too
early in our history to be
to
[00:10:40] Will: But,
[00:10:40] Speaker 2: It's,
[00:10:41] Will: you
know,
we know that they gain from it by getting food. they also, the fish themselves, they get taken to other places. I dunno if that's good or not, but they don't seem to mind that.
Everyone
[00:10:49] Rod: likes to travel.
[00:10:50] Will: the megafauna, the sharks, the manta rays, they gain by being a bit cleaned,
but it's not quite clear how much they gain from being cleaned, and it's pretty clear they also do get a little bit injured.
Right.[00:11:00]
[00:11:00] Rod: Right.
[00:11:00] Will: And so researchers are wondering how much is this? Where does this sit on
the, the
spectrum between mutualism, where they're
[00:11:08] Speaker 2: both better, uh,
[00:11:09] Will: both benefiting
equally or at least close to equally, or parasitism- Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:15] Speaker 2: Yeah. host gets no benefits, and there's clearly lots of, lots of species out there. Yeah.
[00:11:18] Will: But a particular team of researchers, at the University of Miami, uh, wanted to investigate a little, unknown behaviour that might add a little Philip to
the behaviours here. They [00:11:30] have termed it c cloacal diving.
[00:11:31] Rod: Fuck yes.
[00:11:33] Will: So,
utilising opportunistic video and photographic evidence-
Mm-hmm
this study documents, remora entering manta ray c cloacal openings, henceforth described as C cloacal diving-
in, uh, all three currently described species of manta ray.
[00:11:48] Rod: How
how
many videos are there?
'cause Like I've
Like open diving,
like
one, two, and three. But I've heard four and five Really? So
[00:11:55] Will: they surveyed, a bunch of, information from drones.
I dunno how drones would [00:12:00] catch it, but anyway, scuba divers, free divers, we used, and
they, they
went out and collected their own, and
they,
looked around,
[00:12:05] Speaker 2: you know,
[00:12:05] Will: what they can find on the open web. they don't have a whole lot. they have seven examples of c cloacal diving, which they said is
a
fair bit less than 1%
of, their total survey efforts. So
they're they're not saying cla diving is the most common thing. But they do have one video, and I just have to commend our listeners to watching this video because- So the remora, I'll just go with the description that they've got from the journal, 'cause it's a great bit of, scientific language to describe [00:12:30] something that, uh, I've watched the video
and,
and
I, felt the same thing.
[00:12:33] Rod: You'd use different language?
[00:12:34] Will: well, not, well,
[00:12:36] Rod: I suppose, is it for work or is it on the
[00:12:37] Will: way? The, the key word that I would use here I think is, is absolutely, "One observation Ofl diving behaviour from July 13th, 23rd. 23 was caught on video helps to provide some additional context."
Mm-hmm. See video
one," says the journal article. "In this observation, a free diver approached an adult and Atlantic manta ray from behind.
Upon initial approach- Where you gonna find it
a medium sized remora was [00:13:00] visible near the manta ray's pelvic fence. So it's swimming around already. Yeah. "Once the diver passed into the vertical plane of the manta ray," so it's getting close.
[00:13:07] Speaker 2: The
[00:13:07] Will: the diver is getting close here. "The remora appeared to startle and quickly inserted itself into the manta ray's Axl opening."
was
[00:13:15] Rod: the other way, like
I
thought it was gonna the other way, like,
busted, got its head out and ran,
but it's a revert Hide yourself.
[00:13:19] Will: He's hiding in there, like-
we're
[00:13:20] Rod: gonna go? In hole in his stool ...
[00:13:21] Will: but I like this bit. " In response to this intrusion, the manta ray briefly shuttered and this is the,
like,
the video I I watched here.
The manta ray [00:13:30] definitely has the full shutter that you can imagine that you, listener, would feel if a remora went into your clo al opening.
[00:13:37] Rod: Shuttering
can be pro orcon, It
[00:13:40] Will: can be pro orcon, Like it's, let's call it an involuntary bodily response to
[00:13:47] Rod: And again,
involuntary can be, you know
good or bad.
[00:13:49] Will: The man ray briefly shuttered before continuing to swim away with the remora still inside its C cloacal opening.
While this video clip was brief and does not show the remora re-emerging from the cloacal opening, it is [00:14:00] possible the unexpected presence of the free diver prompted the C cloacal diving behaviour. So it's
kind
of hiding sort of thing,
indicating the possibility that this behaviour could be a response to the perceived predation risk or other threat by the men remora.
So
[00:14:12] Rod: don't know if
I don't know if that's
Paris more
That
mutual.
That sounds mutual.
It
[00:14:16] Will: There's the question. There's the question.
[00:14:20] Rod: Like a
[00:14:20] Will: nee
[00:14:21] Rod: Only better.
[00:14:22] Will: The little death, the little shutter. I don't know,
[00:14:25] Rod: know. I don't know where to go.
[00:14:28] Will: So listener, there's the question for [00:14:30] you. param, mutualism,
what's going on here? Or other.
[00:14:34] Rod: other. Bit
of both.
[00:14:35] Will: And, uh, yeah, if your cloacal opening, uh, has a remora in it, let us know
Oh, great Well,
I've got another well,
now we know about the animal kingdom, for you that, um, I hadn't pondered, but maybe our farmer friends had pondered.
Mm. and
well,
finally we've got an answer.
Okay. and that, the question is, can cows tell us apart?
[00:14:56] Rod: From what?
[00:14:56] Will: Us as individuals, us humans.
[00:14:58] Rod: or not like human or
[00:15:00] telegraph
[00:15:00] Will: Yeah, no, human. human or, grass. That one's
[00:15:02] Rod: gonna feed
[00:15:02] Will: me That
[00:15:03] Rod: one won't.
[00:15:03] Will: they, can they,
can they tell the difference between us?
You know,
It's an important bit of, uh, important bit of research. and
[00:15:09] Rod: cows discern between humans?
[00:15:11] Will: But actually
[00:15:11] Speaker 2: actually
[00:15:11] Will: to answer that question,
this,
research took a little detour and went via a pathway that I wasn't expecting.
they got a bunch of cows.
[00:15:17] Rod: Yeah.
[00:15:18] Will: the idea here is social recognition.
You know,
do animals recognise things in their environment? they recognise individuals? Do they have enough discernment Sure they do. Yeah. sure. In domesticated species, the long evolutionary [00:15:30] history shared by, with humans has led to investigations into, the ways different animals might recognise.
[00:15:35] Speaker 2: And,
[00:15:35] Will: you
know, we,
clearly know, some of our more friendly, species, the dogs can tell us apart. Absolutely. Although I did read a study once that said
[00:15:42] Speaker 2: dogs
[00:15:43] Will: see no difference between the front and the back of our body?
like that. I don't even understand because they look us in the eye.
[00:15:48] Rod: They, really do.
[00:15:49] Will: they
really do ...
they, they do. I don't
[00:15:50] Rod: see my dogs
staring
[00:15:51] Will: maybe they're looking in the, maybe they're looking at us in the back of their head, in, the
same loving way.
[00:15:55] Rod: They can tell.
you can
tell, You can feel
[00:15:57] Will: I don't know.
[00:15:58] Rod: you.
[00:15:59] Will: So this [00:16:00] interestingly got cows and, put 'em in the barn- but gave them two TV sets to watch.
Of course. which I-
[00:16:05] Speaker 2: I,
[00:16:05] Rod: because normally
normally only have one ...
[00:16:06] Will: just answered some questions for me, It is
like,
can cows watch TV?
[00:16:10] Rod: Like, let's stop
Yeah,
like
let's stop
there. Like,
do they watch 'em? Yeah. Cool.
Cows watch telly ...
[00:16:13] Will: I think that's an interesting thing 'cause I think there would be other animals that don't necessarily watch TV,
and There would. they would.
32
cows
were exposed to two tests: a visual preference test during which two silent videos were shown simultaneously- each displaying either a familiar or an unfamiliar human face.
[00:16:29] Rod: Did the silent [00:16:30] videos have subtitles at least
so they knew
what was
[00:16:31] Will: I, think so. I think
[00:16:32] Speaker 2: it
[00:16:32] Will: it was all piano music.
It was like there's someone playing the piano.
[00:16:37] Rod: So
So a
familiar or an unfamiliar player.
[00:16:38] Will: Yeah. Charlie Chaplin and Benny Hill- and they only knew Benny Hill. Both familiar. don't think Benny Hill's from the right era, but anyway.
[00:16:44] Rod: Yeah.
[00:16:44] Will: and sometimes they, the other version is they'd have, a voice that came from that person or a voice that didn't come from that person.
But anyway- anyway,
just, just,
so that
you know,
during the visual preference test, cows looked significantly longer at the video showing the unfamiliar person.
[00:16:59] Rod: So they prefer a [00:17:00] bit of strange.
[00:17:00] Will: Yeah, they're looking at the stranges. They gotta check it. So Ugh. they're like, "I know that, that person over there-"
[00:17:04] Rod: Boring
[00:17:05] Will: "That's boring."
Wow. "
Who's,
it's this, where have is
[00:17:09] Rod: The long
[00:17:10] Will: drink of Water? These two results show that cows are able to discriminate between familiar and unfamiliar individuals.
So Well, they do. It doesn't tell us
[00:17:19] Rod: much else, but it is a start. No, it is a start. So there you go.
[00:17:23] Will: There you go. If you are ever looking at cows, they can tell you apart.
[00:17:26] Rod: So if they're staring at you for a long time, they-
they don't they don't
know you. [00:17:30] What's the difference between a duck? One leg is both the same
can't go on after that profound ending to the last one. I just,
[00:17:38] Will: No, you can't 'cause it's actually my story next as well 'cause I,
[00:17:40] Rod: that
[00:17:40] Will: I just got a, I just got another quick update for you.
[00:17:42] Rod: an
[00:17:43] Will: This is from the Department of Intense Headlines.
this is, our friends over at The Mirror in the UK.
[00:17:47] Rod: The Daily
[00:17:48] Will: The Daily Mirror? The Daily Mirror. One one of them, uh,
[00:17:50] Rod: The,
[00:17:50] Will: a red top.
[00:17:51] Rod: it, it's A classic red top ...
it's the newspaper record for all non record keepers.
[00:17:56] Will: People who need a bit of boobs with their, newspaper.
[00:17:58] Rod: You have
my
attention?
[00:17:59] Will: I don't know if they still [00:18:00] do. I dunno if they still do that. We'll
[00:18:01] Rod: see
they
[00:18:02] Will: So
just,
to put in context,
it
is, it is very daloy, But
I,
I just had to read this headline out because I couldn't resist it. Mutant super pig populations spirals out of control in Fukushima nuclear fallout zone." I
[00:18:13] Rod: knew it. No
one believed me.
"Mutant
super pig population spirals out of control
in
the Fukushima
region.
[00:18:20] Will: In the Fukushima region. And so they-
[00:18:23] Rod: Wow.
[00:18:24] Will: a
mutant super pig population Popula has spiralled outta control in areas close to the Fukushima
[00:18:28] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[00:18:28] Will: uh, nuclear fallout zone. [00:18:30] So it's pretty big area,
[00:18:31] Speaker 2: in
[00:18:31] Will: fallout zone around Fukushima,
[00:18:33] Speaker 2: Fukushima
[00:18:33] Will: nuclear Power Plant, 'cause Fukushima is a whole region.
Yeah.
Um, like 164,000 people were forced to flee after the earth. earthquake and tsunami and, nuclear, devastation.
Yeah.
And a bunch of domesticated pigs, like your,
[00:18:45] Speaker 2: your,
[00:18:45] Will: know,
[00:18:45] Speaker 2: you know,
[00:18:46] Will: the farms that were in there-
[00:18:47] Rod: Yeah
[00:18:48] Speaker 2: uh,
[00:18:48] Will: escaped- and went feral
and, lived-
[00:18:51] Rod: didn't wanna get either
No.
[00:18:52] Will: No.
[00:18:52] Speaker 2: they
[00:18:53] Will: they stayed in the nuclear fallout
[00:18:54] Rod: Well,
they
get lost
[00:18:55] Will: there.
Um, and they have interbred with the feral population that, the feral boars that are So you got your feral [00:19:00] boars and you've got your domesticated pigs, your farm pigs, and they've had a bit of,
[00:19:03] Rod: the
feral balls We got "
Hey"
[00:19:05] Will: all
the farm pigs have gone, hay. This
like
[00:19:06] Rod: a princess.
[00:19:07] Will: Inde. look how clean you are. you-
[00:19:10] Rod: in your own
filth
[00:19:10] Will: covered in your own film. Mine. No, literally. they must. They're like- "What the hell are you? You like me, but you just-" junior, your pigs were pink.
I have no didn't. No, indeed. Indeed. Um, they've bred-
[00:19:21] Rod: Yeah ...
[00:19:21] Speaker 2: and,
uh, Yeah
[00:19:22] Will: yeah. and uh, and a mutant hybrid population has emerged.
[00:19:24] Rod: they've
got hands and three eyes.
No,
[00:19:26] Will: no, no,
[00:19:27] Rod: head.
like harmonica-
[00:19:28] Will: No
[00:19:29] Rod: poo outta their ears. [00:19:30] It's...
[00:19:30] Will: I want that. I, I want all of these things. I want, I want like talking pigs. I want like a Ninja turtle sort of thing's. 0.7% bigger than the others.
No, they, Well,
this goes back to the population spirals outta control.
Yeah. domesticated pigs breed on a shorter timeframe. Of course So Like, 'cause we've bred them so you can breed faster. I dunno what it is. Let's say
it's, 10 minutes- Yep ... after birth they can have
another,
another generation of pigs. Yep. Feral pigs, takes
like
a year. And so- that's different
and so suddenly the new feral mutant population-
...they're having babies even quicker.
[00:19:57] Rod: Every six
minutes.
[00:19:58] Will: Every six something like that. [00:20:00] But there you go. I just wanted to say,
like for,
for your headline generation-
[00:20:04] Rod: Oh, yeah ...
[00:20:04] Will: it's just great, but the story itself is, uh-
[00:20:07] Rod: Whatever ...
[00:20:08] Will: it, it's
not quite that.
[00:20:09] Rod: So pigs with different breeding cycles have affected each other's breeding cycles.
[00:20:13] Will: Yes.
[00:20:14] Rod: Oh, and, oh, did I mention nuclear?
[00:20:16] Will: Yeah, nuclear. Yeah. And clearly- Gaira is coming soon as well.
[00:20:22] Rod: So I was reading this article and started with a quick test. It got me thinking. So here's, test.
Place your finger on the part of your body that best represents the location of you, [00:20:30] yourself.
[00:20:30] Will: Oh, Go ah.
[00:20:31] Rod: Don't think about it. There's no right or wrong answer, just-
Oh ...
go
[00:20:34] Will: ah, go there.
It's my throat. Your throat? throat.
[00:20:36] Speaker 2: I'm just, which bit of my head is closest to the brainy bit. Like, like yeah, yeah.
[00:20:40] Rod: Which is not uncommon.
[00:20:41] Will: Yeah. So what I do, Or you go your heart.
[00:20:42] Rod: are the two as a rule.
[00:20:43] Will: Or your French, go your liver.
[00:20:44] Rod: French, yeah, they go, they go straight. the
Greeks go further down.
[00:20:47] Will: The,
the Greeks are straight to the balls?
[00:20:49] Rod: Bum bum.
[00:20:49] Will: bum?
bum.
[00:20:50] Rod: Greeks love the
bum
[00:20:51] Will: which bit of the
bum bum?
Like are we talking the cheek or the dot?
[00:20:53] Rod: The dot. That's me.
[00:20:56] Speaker 2: That's That's me. Like, I mean, it's part of me.
[00:20:59] Rod: That's not, that, [00:21:00] that's literature. That's So when I did it, my hand kind of meaned towards my head and then landed on my chest-
[00:21:06] Will: Oh, yeah, fair enough ...
[00:21:07] Rod: for whatever reason. And so you, we know the stereotypes. the head thinker, more analytic and systematic.
[00:21:12] Will: Oh, oh, we're going there. we are assuming this has meaning rather than
[00:21:14] Rod: just- well, Roger, yeah. The
The
Heart thinker is more emotional and
sensitive you know, a
much hypo crap.
[00:21:18] Will: Okay.
[00:21:19] Rod: Bunch of pop psych.
[00:21:20] Will: Yes,
yes.
[00:21:21] Rod: Yeah.
[00:21:21] Speaker 2: can you, Anyone
[00:21:23] Will: ask to represent your whole self with one quick gesture, Like Makes it the perfect test.
Yeah. This will explain [00:21:30] everything about everything.
[00:21:31] Rod: Well, it would appear the nuances.
[00:21:32] Will: Yeah.
I know, I weird, right?
[00:21:34] Rod: So 2013, researchers wanted to know more about it, and apparently they were pretty
much the first to scientifically really check out the head thinker, heart thinker, which I have questions about, but let's move on.
[00:21:46] Will: But yeah, again, maybe because other people are like,
[00:21:48] Rod: yeah, seriously.
[00:21:49] Will: this is stupid."
[00:21:50] Rod: seriously, come on.
So they, the,
participants questionnaire the self reports of whether they decided they were head locators or head job as I prefer to call it, or heart locators or
th [00:22:00] robbers.
head job or ahr. It makes sense.
[00:22:01] Will: Again, again- matters So no surprises, the head locators more likely to say that they're rational, logical, et cetera.
Sure.
[00:22:09] Rod: The heart locators, they saw themselves more emotionally-
Yeah,
[00:22:11] Will: yeah, yeah,
[00:22:11] Rod: yeah, blah, blah, as you expect.
as you'd
[00:22:12] Will: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:13] Rod: But there were some correlates with other things. So your head job is,
they
scored better on tested general knowledge and more
sort of
knowledgey,
facty things.
[00:22:20] Will: Yeah, okay.
[00:22:21] Rod: The heart's robbers feel worse and more tense in stressful situations,
and
gave indicators are more emotionally sensitive.
[00:22:27] Will: So perhaps, perhaps maybe it's
something [00:22:30] innate about them, but maybe they've learned about during their whole lives to think of themselves in that kind of way because-
[00:22:35] Rod: Possibly.
And
and they did say the effect is enduring, 'cause where people believed they were one or the other, a year later on tested rational and or emotional thinking styles
stayed
the same.
[00:22:45] Will: Wow. I, I love the idea of let's go back longitudinally every seven years and test whether they put their hand on their head or their heart
[00:22:51] Rod: it, and film it across the countries.
more recently, one of the authors who did that study did a different one. They wanted to know more. So they were four 50
people. They said, "Imagine [00:23:00] performing the following activities," and they were more
head
activities or hard feeling activities.
And
for each activity they said, "Okay,
rate
on this how much you used, how much you felt yourself was in your no.
And versus your heart."
So one is anatomy was in there, seven is Albany. Yeah, yeah.
Hard or
head, Harder. or
head, harder.
head. heart head. No surprise they'll put themselves in their heads more when they're thinking about their studies, they put themselves in their heart and analysing their feelings. Shit you'd expect.
[00:23:22] Will: Wow.
[00:23:22] Rod: Yeah.
you'd,
I know. It's like,
no
way. Confirmatory will call it.
It turns out people who were more flexible about moving themselves or the centre of themselves [00:23:30] between the two were better at doing all tasks, all tests and things emotional or-
[00:23:34] Will: Ah ...
[00:23:35] Rod: rational. So the people who felt they were more flexible between where their self was located-
[00:23:38] Will: That's why I said throat.
[00:23:39] Rod: Exactly. I thought
[00:23:40] Will: halfway between.
[00:23:41] Rod: Exactly. So you are,
you are like the Buddha, except for your feet
story.
[00:23:45] Will: Yeah.
[00:23:45] Rod: And so this suggests if you can willfully more, you know, employ
where you put yourself,
you
may get better at shit in general, which is fine. But what I like more is
a,
a little bit of the
2013 study
they talk about later on.
So ask participants, just asking 'em to touch the different [00:24:00] parts of themselves could shift their thinking modes while they were considering different kinds of stuff. So you literally get 'em to touch their heads when considering a moral dilemma, like the famous trolley problem, or touch their hearts, and they immediately-
[00:24:09] Will: Yeah, okay
[00:24:10] Rod: interacted with 'em differently. so if they touch their temples, they got more analytical and they were doing better at it. they touched their chest. they were more likely to be guided by their instincts. And the fun thing was
performance on
true false tests of general knowledge that required logical and stuff, people who shifted their thinking to their head-
[00:24:25] Will: Like by touching it
[00:24:26] Rod: yeah, 9% better than people
who pushed to heart. And I'm like, [00:24:30] well, that's
fun. so, the lesson here is, uh, students, if you're about to go in an exam- touch your head.
Touch your organin. unless it's an exam on your feelings.
[00:24:37] Will: what exam on your feelings?
[00:24:39] Rod: I did counselling. psychology. That okay ... that
was, all, that was all feelings.
[00:24:41] Will: Yeah, okay.
If you get, if, if you're going into marriage counselling, okay, touch yourself in your heart.
[00:24:45] Rod: I want 'em to really fuck with it. What I want 'em to do is like, like put people in situations for
two
solid days where they only do head sort of stuff and then give emotional questions or the other way around and just see what happens.
So if they're all in there, I gonna give 'em a full on ethical scenarios that are [00:25:00] horrible and complicated and see if the people had been head driven for two days are different than people have been heart driven. there's a reason I'm not still on ethics committees.
[00:25:06] Will: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:25:07] Rod: I'd be
I'm really curious to see how strong that effect could be.
Anyway, thanks psychology for telling us stuff we mostly kind probably knew,
but not
quite.
Not
quite.
You are crying.
Why are you crying?
[00:25:18] Will: I'm not crying. do you like Wi-Fi?
Do you,
do you
[00:25:20] Speaker 2: remember
[00:25:20] Will: like you had the internet that was, like, plugged in internet
[00:25:23] Speaker 2: into your,
[00:25:24] Will: into your- Oh, God, into your computers?
[00:25:26] Rod: No original internet. I remember first trying to use Wi-Fi, when I went travelling.[00:25:30]
[00:25:30] Will: Oh, yeah.
[00:25:30] Rod: And the, computer didn't come naturally with Wi-Fi. You
had to
add
[00:25:33] Will: add a card. yeah ...
Yeah.
[00:25:34] Rod: A card was the size of a
reasonable size block of chocolate you had to slide in this giant slot in the
of the
computer to pick up Wi-Fi. And then I went to the Solomon Islands.
I sat in this fancy hotel for the
Solomon's
getting
ready to check my email, and you literally go, "Check email," go to the bar, order some snacks and a drink, come back, and one email would download.
[00:25:52] Will: Yeah. Wow. Okay.
[00:25:53] Speaker 2: Okay.
[00:25:53] Rod: That
was this century.
[00:25:55] Will: it's amazing when you think about how, rapidly, faster and faster internet technology around the world has- you
know,
[00:26:00] it's,
great. but also just that simple shift, and I know Wi-Fi
and mobile internet are different technologies, related in our minds, but
sort of
different technologies. But,
you
know, being able to access the internet in a way that's not literally plugs by literal cables- into the internet
is, is
a bit of a jump.
And,
[00:26:16] Speaker 2: it,
it's,
[00:26:16] Will: and
wifi was a huge part of that, that suddenly you can have a laptop and you can move around your house or move around different devices
and
and it's
[00:26:21] Speaker 2: it's really
[00:26:22] Will: been a, huge thing.
[00:26:23] Rod: outside even, and just it sort of connects.
[00:26:25] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[00:26:25] Rod: It's
magic.
[00:26:26] Will: Yeah.
I wanted to just give you a little bit of a scary bit of, news about [00:26:30] Wi-Fi
[00:26:30] Rod: I'm gonna walk away sad, right?
[00:26:31] Will: No, not really. Just, you'll just go, "Well,
ah, Okay. Fucking bum. Alright. make me Okay.
Group of scientists at the Carls R Institute of Technology in Germany- have found another use for Wi-Fi.
[00:26:44] Rod: Oh, cool.
[00:26:44] Will: See, because our world is so saturated with Wi-Fi signals- mm-hmm.
they're
all over the place.
Like,
in most neighbourhoods you can pick up probably,
you know,
depending if you're suburban or
urban,
you're p picking up from five to 20 different Wi-Fi signals [00:27:00] around.
[00:27:00] Rod: You really see them if not interacting,
[00:27:01] Will: There's like a cloud of Wi-Fi or around us. Now,
the,
the conspiracy minded people are like, "Okay, that's obviously, uh, doing things to us." That's not what I'm gonna tell you about now.
I assume it's gonna be fast scarier than that.
No, it's not. It's not fast, scarier
it's been known for a while that you can use Wi-Fi signals to do a bit of an architecture.
Like, because,
Wi-Fi signals are blocked by,
you know,
blocked by different types of walls and things like that.
[00:27:27] Rod: shapes
in the landscape.
[00:27:28] Speaker 2: you
[00:27:28] Will: a feeling for, [00:27:30] you can use the strength of the Wi-Fi signals in different place to work out, okay, what might be, in the shape of a room or if there's an, an outdoor environment or, or something like that.
[00:27:38] Rod: of a wallet and car keys
in someone's house.
[00:27:40] Will: Oh,
well, yeah.
[00:27:41] Rod: don't,
Don't,
tell me
[00:27:42] Speaker 2: Not
[00:27:42] Will: quite that. No.
this,
[00:27:43] Rod: Thank God.
[00:27:43] Will: This, one, they've gone, "All right, but what about people?"
[00:27:47] Rod: oh,
Oh,
goodie.
[00:27:48] Will: so the result says,
The using an AI system as well as the Wi-Fi, not only can you use this system to, uh, this is just using the regular Wi-Fi that's [00:28:00] around.
So literally-
Not
even special ... not even special. So literally, literally this could be done with the existing technology in your house.
[00:28:06] Rod: probably doing to us right
now. now. possibly. Uh, not only recognise people as in lumps of meat- but individual people. Mm-hmm. Like, we can literally know- mm-hmm. where individual people... I've-- If we know their signal from a Wi-Fi before, so yeah, this, they tried a bunch of different things. people walking in different ways. They got 197 participants, and they got them walking in different ways, standing in different ways, sitting in different [00:28:30] ways, all sort of stuff like that.
[00:28:31] Will: And with nearly 100% accuracy, it was
[00:28:33] Speaker 2: able
[00:28:34] Will: identify- So
[00:28:34] Rod: you could foil gate analysis but not Wi-Fi matter.
[00:28:37] Speaker 2: No,
[00:28:37] Will: it,
it knows who you
are. and the bodies,
You
know, clearly people are moving around, so it's not like you're,
you
know, I can identify this person in exactly that, pose. Yeah. No, it can identify you based on, so the Wi-Fi signal moving through your body, getting distorted by your body, the AI system can use the data
that
is,
that is coming in at the other end.
So basically it's from Right,
[00:28:56] Rod: Caucasian, six foot wide.
[00:28:58] Will: No, No, no, no, no,
[00:28:59] Rod: no. That's
[00:28:59] Will: [00:29:00] Rod. That's Will. Rod. Yeah. Like
it
can, it
can go, "I can see that lump of flesh is Will, that lump of flesh is Rod."
Great.
[00:29:06] Rod: Great.
Great.
Well,
no,
don't look the upside. It'll
revolutionise a private eye
industry.
[00:29:12] Will: Isn't this wild, though?
Like,
it's just that there, there are technologies that are flooding our world that from out in the street, out in the street, someone driving past with a, basically just
[00:29:21] Speaker 2: a,
[00:29:21] Will: laptop
and a bit of software, uh, can know, First of all, it can know
the, the,
people in the building, but if it's gone through those people [00:29:30] before, then it can identify which particular people are there. So-
[00:29:34] Rod: The closest hope I have for this,
I read a sci-fi novel the ways back. It might have been, like, a
weird Arthur C. Clark or something. They'd found the ability to make
really tiny wormholes to which
you could observe-
[00:29:43] Will: Oh yeah,
[00:29:44] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah,
[00:29:44] Will: yeah ...
[00:29:45] Rod: and they gotta to the point where they could be anywhere and any when. And so
once they first invented
them they realised what
were,
they were, they looked
sort
around
the room and waved because they knew from that point forward infinity people could be looking back at them.
But it turned out basically
there was,
there was the end of privacy.
[00:29:59] Will: Yeah.
[00:29:59] Rod: No [00:30:00] privacy forever. And it changed the way people behaved. So instead of getting more sinister, it just meant people-
[00:30:04] Will: Ah, look, maybe ... less of a shit.
Maybe. maybe, they might, but it does, it does suggest this is a technology that, you
know, this is rudimentary,
[00:30:12] Speaker 2: rudimentary,
[00:30:13] Will: can identify individual exact people, but it moves to a place where you can literally see through things in a way that we just couldn't before. So-
why not?
Yeah.
[00:30:23] Rod: why not?
But again, I hope it'll normalise. we won't care anymore.
[00:30:26] Will: Oh,
[00:30:27] Rod: there's no, point.
[00:30:28] Will: no. people don't care because it's too [00:30:30] tiring to care.
[00:30:30] Rod: Give up
exactly.
too tired.
What an upbeat end
[00:30:34] Will: There
you go.
There you go. So what did we have? We had, animal masturbation,
[00:30:37] Rod: Mosquitoes
trained to actually like repellent
[00:30:40] Will: if you, uh, liked what you heard- um, you can send us topic suggestions at Cheers@alittlebitofscience.com.au And you
[00:30:48] Rod: could also give us 17 stars on every app, even if it's not related to podcast. Oh.
Because Timo ...
each star is $4 million in
our bank account.
[00:30:56] Will: I dunno if it is
[00:30:57] Rod: a Bit less.
It's been delight. [00:31:00] [00:31:30]
