On November 24, 1971, Dan Cooper, a quiet, nondescript man (wearing the classic business suit everyone wore back then) wandered into Portland airport and paid cash for a one-way ticket to Seattle. He drank his bourbon and soda in the lounge and boarded the plane like every other passenger.
Cooper was your average guy, at least until shortly after takeoff, when he handed the flight attendant a note. And no, it wasn’t an attempt to flirt his way into the mile-high club. This note said that there was a bomb in his briefcase and that she should sit down next to him. She sat down.
Dan opened his briefcase to reveal a mass of wires and red coloured sticks to the flight attendant, who promptly followed his instructions to send a message to the captain. He demanded that $200,000 in twenty-dollar bills and 4 parachutes be delivered to him upon landing.
The flight landed in Seattle, Cooper exchanged the flight’s 36 passengers for the money and parachutes and then, with some crew still on board, took off again for Mexico City.
Somewhere between Seattle and Reno, ordinary Dan walked to the back of the plane, opened a door and jumped out with a parachute and the money. The pilots landed safely and DB Cooper, as he became known, disappeared.
50 years later, we’re still looking for him.
The NORJAK (NORthwest HiJAcKing) case newspaper headlines were prolific, updating America on the conjectures, clues and ongoing FBI investigations. America loved DB Cooper and speculation of his whereabouts continued as amateur investigators got to amateur investigating.
There were even copycat hijackers, like Richard Floyd McCoy Jr (what a mouthful), who carried out an almost identical skyjacking on a Boeing 727 flight from New Jersey to LA 5 months later.. McCoy upped the ante demanding $500k wielding a pistol and hand grenade but after skydiving over Utah, was caught in 72 hours. He then died in a prison-break shoot-out (gangster!).
By the 5-year anniversary of the DB Cooper hijacking, the FBI had scoured the plane for evidence, considered more than 800 suspects, and dismissed all but two dozen. But no arrests. DB Cooper was a ghost. Maybe he was living his best life in Mexico, maybe he was impaled on a tree somewhere in the forest. No one knew.
Then in 1980, a clue! A young boy found a rotting package full of twenty-dollar bills ($5,800 in all) that matched the ransom money serial numbers near the Columbia River. Or maybe the kid found the whole $200k. We don’t know. But even with the cash found, no one knew where DB Cooper was… or did they?
Enter, author and amateur investigator Tom Colbert. Colbert became obsessed with trying to prove that one Robert Rackstraw was the man behind the heist, even though he was never officially connected to the case.
Rackstraw was a pilot and Vietnam veteran who was already in trouble for $75 grand worth of cheque fraud $75,000 in 1977. He did the smart thing and fled to Iran to teach the Shah’s men how to fly helicopters in the build up to the Iranian Revolution. Eventually, Rackstraw was extradited back to the US after authorities discovered 14 rifles and 150 pounds of dynamite in his storage units. Oh, he was also arrested for the alleged murder of his stepfather then faked his death, pretending to crash his plane into Monterey Bay. Quite the guy really. He died in 2019 and firmly denied any involvement in the DB Cooper case until the end.
Maybe DB Cooper was going by the name William Pratt Gossett, a radio talk show host in Salt Lake City who moderated discussions about the paranormal. Gossett claimed to have committed the DB Cooper heist himself, gifting his son the key to a safety deposit box on his 21st birthday, which contained the money. The FBI called bullshit on this but funny enough, no one ever bothered to check the alleged safety deposit box.
Or perhaps DB Cooper was actually Barbara Dayton, an aviation enthusiast and World War II veteran who underwent gender reassignment surgery. She claimed to have boarded the plane while presenting as a male, happily going into detail about how she pulled off the heist. But when she found out that the government was still prepared to prosecute whoever committed the hijacking, she quickly withdrew her claim.
Although many others claimed to be DB Cooper, all the official leads had dried up and the NORJAK case was closed in 2016 after 45 years of investigation.
BUT in March this year (literally a few weeks before recording this episode), the case came back to life. Remember McCoy, who did the copycat hijack? Well, his son Rick just submitted a cheek swab to the FBI for DNA analysis. Apparently, Rick’s mother had confessed that his dad was DB Cooper, saying that McCoy senior “would be furious he wasn't getting the credit he deserved”. Is Rick on a mission to reclaim his father’s criminal glory?
There have also been advancements in DNA sampling, using metagenomic DNA analysis of material left in the spindle of Cooper’s clip-on tie (he left it on the plane). We are literally awaiting the results as we speak.
And remember how Cooper asked for four parachutes and only used one? Well one of them is currently with the Washington State Historical Society. The FBI had asked to test that for DNA as well, but for some odd reason, the museum all of a sudden changed its mind.
Maybe DB Cooper runs the museum. Maybe it really was McCoy! Or maybe his skeleton remains at the top of a tree.
We don’t know. But boy do we want to find out.
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[00:00:00] Rod: Portland, Oregon, November 24, 1971. Dan Cooper was at the airport. He was wearing a business suit. He had a black tie and a white shirt. Described as a quiet, nondescript man, probably in his mid 40s.
[00:00:13] Will: But that, what year was this again?
[00:00:15] Rod: 71.
[00:00:15] Will: Everyone flew in business suits when you're flying. You had to.
[00:00:18] Rod: Yeah. I think you pretty much did. If you weren't wearing a tie, particularly internationally, you're off. So he wanders up to the counter. He buys a one way ticket to seattle on flight 305 and he pays cash.
[00:00:29] Will: Sure, a lot of people paid cash back then.
[00:00:30] Rod: I would have thought but for some reason some of these stories emphasize that He orders a bourbon and soda. He waits for the plane to take off.
[00:00:37] Will: That's you waiting for the plane drink.
[00:00:39] Rod: It's bourbon and soda
[00:00:40] Will: Oh, it's a way to ruin bourbon, but still
[00:00:42] Rod: Bourbon. Bit of ice, yum, delicious, sugary delicious. Soon enough to take off, he hands the flight attendant a note. It said he had a bomb in his briefcase and she should sit down next to him. You're gonna be shocked to hear, she sat down next to him.
[00:00:56] Will: Yeah, okay, fair enough. She's not allowed to report this to anyone else?
[00:00:59] Rod: Holy fuck, it's a bomb and start running and screaming, the bomb guy might go boom.
[00:01:03] Will: No, I get it. I just.
[00:01:04] Rod: Or may have other weapons. So, he opens up his briefcase and she sees inside, as it was put, a mass of wires and red colored sticks. AKA dynamite looking stuff. He told her to write down some instructions, and then she was to take them to the captain.
[00:01:17] Will: He could have written a note for the captain as well. Take this note to the captain.
[00:01:21] Rod: Oh, he's in charge. He's the executive.
[00:01:22] Will: He's only writing one note? I've got one note in me.
[00:01:25] Rod: Yeah, because he's a perfectionist. So he had demanded four parachutes and 200, 000 in 20 bills. Now they didn't have these on the plane. This was to come.
[00:01:33] Will: They had parachutes on the plane?
[00:01:34] Rod: No. None of these things, but he was saying, okay, I'm going to keep you all hostages until when we land, I get this stuff. So they land in Seattle. The hijacker then gets rid of all the passengers, keeps a bunch of the crew and he gets his money and his four parachutes. So off they go again. Plane takes off. He says, set course for Mexico city, which I'd love to visit. It looks awesome but not like this Obviously. Somewhere between Seattle and Reno, in Nevada, a bit after 8pm, Cooper walks to the back of the plane, jumps out with a parachute and the ransom money.
[00:02:07] Will: He opened the door first.
[00:02:08] Rod: I believe he did, but I couldn't find which door.
[00:02:11] Will: Probably doesn't matter. He opens the door. How easy is it to open a door? Was it easier back in the 70s?
[00:02:15] Rod: It seems like it really was.
[00:02:16] Will: A thing passengers could just do if you felt like it? He's in control, he's a hostage guy.
[00:02:20] Rod: He's the guy. So the pilots landed safely and Cooper Disappeared.
[00:02:32] Will: Welcome to The Wholesome Show, the podcast that has no problem skydiving from the butt end of a passenger jet, as long as it lands in the hole of science. Jesus, that is really working hard. There's a lot of words there.
[00:02:43] Rod: I'm here for you.
[00:02:44] Will: Yeah. I'm Will Grant.
[00:02:45] Rod: I'm Rod Lamberts. And we have to shout out to Stephen in Adelaide, because this story, we can thank him for it, Andrew, it's his fault. He's the reason I went down a hell of a rabbit hole this week instead of doing my day job.
[00:02:54] Will: Steven is dan Cooper?
[00:02:56] Rod: Well, we might reveal that at the end. God, that'd be a baller move. Surprise, it's me.
[00:03:02] Will: But, listener, follow Steven's lead. If you got topics that you want us to dive into the rabbit hole of, Send them in, chuck them in a comment here on YouTube or
[00:03:10] Rod: cheers@thewholesomeshow.Com by the emails. So what happened next? The FBI began to investigate as you would expect. The case became known as NORJAK short for Northwest hijacking. Fucking lame name.
[00:03:24] Will: No.
[00:03:25] Rod: What would you call it?
[00:03:25] Will: Operation Centipede.
[00:03:28] Rod: You call everything that. You're at work. We're gonna have a meeting. What are you gonna call it? Operation Centipede.
[00:03:31] Will: Yeah no. I think you go through the cool insects. That's what I would do. Like it's got Operation Scorpion, Operation
[00:03:38] Rod: praying Mantis.
[00:03:38] Will: Praying mantis. That is a good one.
[00:03:40] Rod: Murder hornet.
[00:03:41] Will: No, you save that. That's your genocide level plans.
[00:03:44] Rod: All the nuclear bombs about to go off operation murder Hornet. So the story became really big that the, in the news, the headlines at the time were really prolific. And I went down and one of the rabbit holes was, A whole bunch of old news reports and they're cool.
[00:03:58] So one headline, man leaps from plane with 200, 000 ransom. That was straight after. So you're factful. Next day you get after this DB Cooper familiar with airplanes and parachuting says the authorities. You would imagine that is a plane and this is a parachute.
[00:04:14] Will: It's not your first flight. If you're like, okay, to take it over and do this. Also not your first parachuting.
[00:04:19] Rod: To be fair, maybe it was
[00:04:21] Will: bold
[00:04:23] Rod: over the next month or so, the headlines continue. They go to authorities find no clues in DB Cooper search. So it's already starting to be like, well, that's what's going on. Then we moved to DB Cooper's hijacking success baffles officers. DB Cooper captured the hearts and imaginations of Americans. So we're already getting a
[00:04:41] Will: So there's a love story here
[00:04:42] Rod: there really is: America and that guy. Person claiming to be DB Cooper sends letters to newspapers. So that was in December, but this quickly turns into an opinion piece still in December, selective law and order on how the public views DB Cooper.
[00:04:58] So they started to go, Oh, wait a minute. And like, there's the love, hate thing and the romance. And finally, two weeks after that. So early January, Skyjacket DB Cooper becoming folk hero. So
[00:05:09] Will: what's the time period here? This is talking a month and a bit. And just to clarify where he jumps out somewhere between Seattle and Reno, whereabouts are we talking?
[00:05:17] Rod: He lands in a place that no one's ever heard of unless you live there. Or does he? But it's interesting. And this is these newspapers from all over the place a lot in Minnesota, Michigan and places like this, but it was from all over the place. He's becoming this folk hero already within what six weeks, but you know, they're baffled as it said, law enforcement are baffled. Then April, 1972, so four months later, five months later, whatever Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr. Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr. What do we call our kid? All of my names, junior. So he's a Vietnam vet, experienced skydiver. He carried out in April of 72. So this was the April after the November in which Cooper did his thing. He carries out an almost identical skyjacking, a Boeing 727.
[00:06:01] Will: Like not as a demonstration. This is, he's actually doing it. A copycat.
[00:06:04] Rod: No, he's doing it. So it's a United Airlines flight 855. I know you're wondering. During its voyage from Newark in New Jersey to LA, he uses a pistol and a hand grenade.
[00:06:14] He holds the aircraft to get 500, 000 in ransom. Then he skydives from the rear back stairs over Utah and was caught in 72 hours.
[00:06:22] Will: I was hoping they'd catch him with like a net. Like we are that ready now for you, parachuting criminals. We've got nets ready to catch you.
[00:06:31] Rod: Weeks before he had bragged to his friends that he'd come up with a foolproof plan for hijacking a plane and that Cooper should have asked for more money. So he's talking about Cooper as someone else.
[00:06:39] Will: He'd come up with, so this Floyd guy is saying, I've come up with a foolproof plan, copying someone else's plan.
[00:06:45] Rod: Except he reckons his was better.
[00:06:47] Will: I know that you can't copyright a criminal plan, but I feel like you at least get a claim to say, you know, Cooper came up with it. This guy did not come up with it.
[00:06:55] Rod: I want to copyright this caper. Can I do that?
[00:06:58] Will: Copyright a caper. I would like to see criminals suing each other for idea theft.
[00:07:02] Rod: That's a TV show I'd watch. I'm not into reality TV, but that would be fricking tops.
[00:07:06] Will: You stole my scheme. I mean, it must happen all the time because they don't know this is the problem for criminals is they don't have copyright law to protect their ideas.
[00:07:12] Rod: This is the problem for criminals, not with criminals. No one thinks of the criminals when we're making social policy. So he bragged that, and this is what ultimately led to his downfall because he'd been bragging to buddies and then this thing happened and they went, hang on.
[00:07:25] Will: The buddies said, get a net.
[00:07:26] Rod: Yep. Dear authorities, our friend is going to do something dumb. People talked about the similarities between McCoy and Cooper's crimes. So he's right up on the list of potential culprits. But apparently when people were showing images of McCoy, most of the witnesses said he doesn't look anything like Cooper.
[00:07:42] Will: So he was a possible Cooper but no.
[00:07:44] Rod: They're like, no, it doesn't look like him, but then also in 1972, there's a guy called Bryant Jack Coffelt. He apparently reached out to a former cellmate and he says, it was me. I was behind the hijack. He said he'd landed near Mount hood, which is in america.
[00:08:00] Will: I also shot Lincoln
[00:08:01] Rod: and Jimmy Hoffer is just over there. Yeah. No, he says he, that's what he did and he injured himself and he lost the money in the process cause it's a treacherous landing place. Then he burned his parachute with magnesium powder and fled in a Jeep he had stashed nearby. So he's a very accurate skydiver. He then pushes his former cellmate, James Brown, not that one, to go to movie people and say, get me a movie deal . And you're like, alright.
[00:08:30] Will: Is this some sort of standout a gang in prison? You gotta get me a movie deal otherwise
[00:08:33] Rod: What do you want from me? You may have to return the favor one day. I want a scorchy picture
[00:08:37] Will: for my made up crimes.
[00:08:39] Rod: Yeah. So it turns out the FBI knew all about his story and the details and they said none of that matches anything you were talking about. So, he was a known scammer and he was just pulling another con.
[00:08:47] Will: Yeah. Everyone is entranced by Cooper and going, all right, I'm Cooper. I'm Cooper. Will the real Cooper stand up?
[00:08:53] Rod: Give me a movie. So by the fifth anniversary of the hijacking, the FBI had scoured the plane for evidence. They'd apparently considered more than 800 suspects.
[00:09:02] Will: Wow.
[00:09:03] Rod: 800, more than, and at least at that point eliminated all but a couple of dozen from consideration. No arrests though.
[00:09:09] Will: Wow. That is a lot of, I mean, we're talking well more, even in 1970s dollars, well more than 200, 000 in investigation time. I'm not saying That law enforcement people should, you know, only spend the amount that the crime
[00:09:23] Rod: we support all the spending you want to do on anything law officer people.
[00:09:26] Will: No, we don't. No, I'm just saying
[00:09:28] Rod: hookers, blow, apartments in the Gold coast.
[00:09:30] Will: That's a lot of investigation to turn up nothing.
[00:09:32] Rod: It's a shitload. So that's five years later. So what are we, 77. So speculation across the nation still rife. Get to 1979, so what, seven years later, there's a headline man finds Boeing airplane placard that may be linked to D. B. Cooper case.
[00:09:47] Will: Placard.
[00:09:48] Rod: Which I think is like a panel off a plane or something. I don't know exactly.
[00:09:51] Will: Did he steal a panel off the plane as well?
[00:09:53] Rod: We don't know.
[00:09:54] Will: Everyone is linking. You know, you find a bit of plane. It's like MH370 or D. B. Cooper.
[00:09:58] Rod: Amelia Earhart.
[00:09:59] Will: All three of them in the same place.
[00:10:01] Rod: So that's 79. 1980, a young boy finds a rotting package full of 20 bills, about six grand's worth. And they matched the ransom money serial numbers near the Columbia river, which is in America.
[00:10:12] Will: Okay. Okay. Matching serial numbers
[00:10:14] Rod: so, and it was rotting so it obviously been sitting there
[00:10:16] Will: because that's what money does obviously after a few years, I mean, obviously that would be how you would design your currency. Our currency should be made of fish skin.
[00:10:25] Rod: I think human skin.
[00:10:27] Will: Why would you do that?
[00:10:28] Rod: I mean, you can compress the skin cells that are lying around your house. So this helps speculation that Cooper didn't survive the plane crash, the plane jump, sorry. Cause the parachute he was using apparently couldn't be steered. It was one of those old school, I assume looks like from a world war two movie.
[00:10:41] Will: It's just like a bucket umbrella sort of.
[00:10:43] Rod: Yeah. His clothing and footwear were well and truly unsuitable for a rough landing and the speculation was where he would have landed would have been quite icky he jumped into this woods area.
[00:10:51] Will: Did the kid get to keep the money?
[00:10:53] Rod: I don't know. Maybe just the gunge from around the edge where it's rotten.
[00:10:57] Will: I think the kids should get to keep the money.
[00:10:58] Rod: I think from the photographs I saw of it, handing that over at the candy store to buy some gumballs.
[00:11:05] Will: He'd found the whole 200 grand. And he said, plausibly he has five grand to the FBI.
[00:11:11] Rod: Where's the rest of it?
[00:11:11] Will: I've never seen any of this
[00:11:13] Rod: one bag that was rotting. What about the rest of it? So they said, yeah, he jumped into the woods. It was at night and it wouldn't have been easy for a seasoned pro and Cooper. So they were saying even a seasoned pro wouldn't have been able to do that easily, and it looked like, from what evidence they had, that he was not a seasoned pro.
[00:11:27] Will: I think anyone confidently jumping out of the back of a plane with four parachutes I'm not sure why you need four, but that sounds to me moderately seasoned pro. I don't think it's your first time because I imagine a lot of people, this is your first time. It's like, okay, I'm going to put you in a stressful situation here. You've just hijacked a plane, stolen 200, 000. Now you've got to jump out of a plane. This is your first time. Go.
[00:11:48] Rod: You're like, cool. Is the plane flying?
[00:11:49] Will: Yes, it's an up plane. I think it's a bold thing as your first parachuting.
[00:11:55] Rod: Super bold if it was like, damn
[00:11:59] Will: like have you parachuted ?
[00:12:00] Rod: No
[00:12:01] Will: like I've done the instructor strapped to my back and it's like, you're doing all the work and off we go. That's all cool. But the idea of me pulling the strings and all that, that was terrifying. Off the back of a sudden, you know, just go, all right, I'll just somewhere in the middle of America, jump out of a plane that is not designed for it.
[00:12:17] Rod: And he didn't take the parachutes with him. I think he only had the one parachute. So he asked for four, but he only used one. I don't know.
[00:12:23] That's the big mystery. That's the big mystery
[00:12:26] Rod: parachute comes into play later. So they basically say, yeah, evidence suggested he wasn't a pro. I don't know what the evidence was cause the FBI would not return my calls. So of course. All of this doesn't really help ID him nor even find him. So who and where the fuck was he or is he? So enter Robert Rackstraw. He's a pilot and a Vietnam vet. He first got noticed by US officials in 1977, suspected of, and the word I had to look up, kiting checks for 75 grand. It's a forging and or defrauding people via checks. 75 grand. So the US officials went, that's bad. He fled the country to Iran in the late seventies to quote, teach the Shah's men how to fly helicopters in the buildup to the Iranian revolution.
[00:13:08] Will: Good time. Good time to sign up for the Shah.
[00:13:12] Rod: Yeah. I'm fleeing America. I'm going to go to pre revolutionary Iran.
[00:13:15] Will: Yeah. There was a lot of torture prisons then. So, so lots of mercenaries. There's a gap there if you have no qualms.
[00:13:21] Rod: All my time machines have qualms. It's a pity. Eventually he's extradited back to the U. S. when Iranian authorities found him with fourteen rifles, a hundred and fifty pounds of dynamite. And apparently somewhere in between this and what I'm about to tell you, he was arrested for the alleged murder of his stepfather, but he was acquitted. So this guy's an upright dude.
[00:13:38] Will: He's not a lovely guy. I'm not sure why you need so much dynamite to teach parachuting.
[00:13:42] Rod: Helicopter flying. Entirely different. If your helicopter's crashing, use dynamite to spin the the rotor properly. That's how it works if you stall the helicopter. So then he fakes his death, pretends to crash his plane into Monterey Bay, which is in America. But officials never formally linked Rakshaw to D. B. Cooper, like ever. However an author, an amateur investigator called Tom Colbert really went a long way to try and demonstrate that he was the guy. So he FOI'd information from the FBI and he built his case against Rackshaw. He pointed out letters that were sent to a bunch of different newspapers, which were allegedly from Cooper. A couple were demonstrated to be hoaxes. Colbert argues probably a bunch of them were coded admissions of guilt from Rackstraw, coded admissions.
[00:14:24] Will: So hang on, you've got away with a crime. You know, you steal the 200 grand, disappear, possibly. Who then writes letters to the newspaper? Like, I guess you want to taunt or something like that?
[00:14:35] Rod: You do wonder like it's very 60 super villain kind of
[00:14:39] Will: It must be so tempting to just go, ah, it just write a letter. Alright.
[00:14:42] Rod: Not only did I get it, but I'm better than you. Yeah. I would never do that.
[00:14:45] Will: That would be literally how you get caught. A hundred percent. Like whatever crime, you will boast about it.
[00:14:49] Rod: No, it'd be worth, I'd get smashed and go, fuck. I'll just tell you. 'cause you seem like a trustworthy person. You won't tell anyone? Yeah. So, Colbert, he did a History Channel documentary in 2016 about the D. B. Cooper case. And apparently he interviews Rackstraw, who says to him, I told everybody I was D. B. Cooper, but Colbert had offered him 20 grand to appear. And later on, Rackstraw says, look, I told people that. I didn't say I was. I told people.
[00:15:16] Will: And look, he doesn't seem like the most upright guy. like he's clearly not a great guy.
[00:15:21] Rod: He died in 2019, but he thoroughly denied having anything to do with the Cooper thing. So that's 2016, there's a headline amateur investigators believe DB Cooper is Robert Rackstraw, but no, it doesn't seem likely at all. And none of the professionals thought it was.
[00:15:37] So let me get to it. There were heaps of wannabes. Like there was so many people who put their hands up and I'm only going to read two, cause they amused me, but there were so many people like it was me. It was me. It could have been him. It could have been him. And if you want to see those, check out our links, many of the sources have a whole bunch of them, like so many of them.
[00:15:53] So the two I'm just going to point out William Pratt Gossett. He was quote, a man who worked as a radio talk show host in salt Lake city, where he moderated discussions about the paranormal.
[00:16:04] Will: Ah, he's a podcaster.
[00:16:05] Rod: Big time. His son said that on his 21st birthday, his father, William Pratt Gossett, showed him two keys to a safety deposit box and he said, this is the box that contains the money from the DB Cooper heist. Which he had done. that's what he said.
[00:16:20] Will: Okay. That's not bad
[00:16:21] Rod: but you can't tell anybody until I'm dead.
[00:16:23] Will: But I get on your son's 21st birthday, you show the family treasure and you say, okay, this is where I got it. I mean, if you had like, if you had done some terrible murdering, maybe you might say, Hey son, This is from a more legitimate crime, not the murdering crime.
[00:16:37] Rod: Or don't look under my bed. There's a lot of skulls.
[00:16:40] Will: Yeah. Lots. My skull collection here. My money collection here. Just go for the money collection.
[00:16:44] Rod: Yeah, leave the skulls. Or we've seen a website where you can sell them for pretty penny.
[00:16:48] Will: So DB Cooper has 200 grand and then he becomes a radio talk show host
[00:16:51] Rod: in Salt Lake city, moderating discussions about the paranormal.
[00:16:55] Will: I don't a hundred percent buy that.
[00:16:57] Rod: No, the FBI lead on the case in the, Mid 2000 tens or so, you know, mid early two thousands. There is not one link to the DB Cooper case other than the statement that Gossett Jr. Made. And apparently, at least at the time of this article, no one has even bothered to check the safe deposit box.
[00:17:12] Will: Like, like, dude, like 21-year-old dude. Go check. Go and look. And surely the serial numbers are checkable
[00:17:19] Rod: I reckon you'd go to the thing and they'd be like this isn't a safe deposit box key.
[00:17:21] Will: No, you have to pay for a safety deposit box. You don't have nothing in there.
[00:17:24] Rod: Maybe he's got ghosts in there.
[00:17:26] Will: Okay. Okay. He keeps paranormal ghosts.
[00:17:29] Rod: My other favorite is Barbara Dayton, aviation enthusiast, World War II veteran, U. S. merchant Marine, who died in 2002. She confessed to a couple of friends that two years after going gender reassignment surgery, she boarded a plane, but was presenting as male at the time, altered her voice.
[00:17:46] Will: Oh, so two years after, but was still halfway through the reassignment.
[00:17:50] Rod: And according to this source, she may have been the first gender reassignment surgery in Washington ever. By the way, Washington state. So anyway, she says, yes, I had the surgery, but then boarded the plane. I presented as male, altered my voice and did the DB Cooper thing.
[00:18:04] And Dayton then went into a whole bunch of details about the heist where she hid the money, blah, blah, blah. Then when someone said on a, cause this was years later you can still be prosecuted and the FBI would, she went, Oh no, bullshit. I was lying. I was lying.
[00:18:17] Will: Don't your crimes get wiped?
[00:18:18] Rod: When you change gender? Yes.
[00:18:21] Will: No, I don't think so.
[00:18:22] Rod: Problem was she'd changed before. But you know, I assume what happened was she figured, I can tell the story now because it's been yonks. And they said, I actually know we can and we'll prosecute you into it. I was lying. I was lying. I was lying. I was lying.
[00:18:32] Will: Yeah. I don't think statute of limitations, like you get to keep the money after 30 years or something.
[00:18:36] Rod: So stories and speculation continued. Amateur investigators kept amateur investigating. Nothing concrete announced. So 2016, we get this headline FBI closes active investigation on DB Cooper case after 45 years.
[00:18:49] Will: Oh, we've moved it to the cold cases. They actually still open that length?
[00:18:54] Rod: That same year. Sun newspaper in the U S. Say to the FBI, Hey, have you dropped the case? And they say, didn't you see our press release in 2016? That was their answer. So yes, it's been assigned to the annals of history, but flash forward to literally a week ago.
[00:19:13] Will: Are you serious?
[00:19:14] Rod: March 2, 2024. So the former agent in charge of the case, he was in charge from 2007 to 2010.
[00:19:21] Will: Not exactly a prestigious job in the FBI at that point. Like in charge of a cold case that is literally 40 years old.
[00:19:28] Rod: But many characters.
[00:19:29] Will: Yeah, sure. It's cool. It's a cool cold case. But it's like solve some Ned Kelly crimes or something like that. It's like pretty much you're in the back room of the FBI.
[00:19:37] Rod: At the end of 2010, he went off, he got promoted and moved somewhere. But then for some reason he moved back and he said the case is not closed. Cause in 2019, when he came back, they put him back on the case, 2019 after 2016, he said, I don't understand people calling it closed because I was assigned to the case when I came back.
[00:19:54] I think even if the case was closed, there would have been an agent on the squad that had the case and if something came up, they would have been told to follow up.
[00:20:00] Will: Of course. Of course. Yeah. I mean, closed in this sense just means no one's actively looking unless something comes up.
[00:20:06] Rod: Administratively closed.
[00:20:07] Will: Larry doesn't quite know how low of a rank in the FBI he is. Like it, it seems to me, he feels like this is prestigious, but it's like
[00:20:13] Rod: let's bring Larry on, surprise! Also, remember, this is a week ago. Remember Richard McCoy, the guy who did the similar heist five months later
[00:20:22] Will: Richard Floyd McCoy. Yep.
[00:20:23] Rod: And he got busted, went to jail. He tried to escape five years afterwards and died in a shootout. But in 2023, his son, Rick. So I assume Richard McCoy jr. submitted a cheek swab to the FBI for DNA analysis. So the question is, why now? And I mean, almost literally now.
[00:20:40] Will: Yeah, but do we have any DNA from DB Cooper in the plane?
[00:20:43] Rod: Well, funny you should ask. So, it's a little confusing like when you read the sources, they kind of mix between whether he contacted the FBI or they pinged him.
[00:20:51] Will: There are a lot of people that are like, Hey, FBI, do you want some of my DNA samples?
[00:20:55] Rod: I've got a bucket of it. I've been spitting in this jar for two years, just in case. So, apparently Rick had chosen one source that he chose to wait until after his mother's death in 2020 to open a dialogue with the FBI because his mom had confessed that his dad was Cooper and that his dad would have been furious if he wasn't getting the credit he deserved for the crimes he'd committed.
[00:21:17] So anyway, the FBI has a sample. But as of March two, this year, Rick has not heard back from them. He gave it to them six months ago or so, but as of last week, still.
[00:21:28] Will: But do we have anything to compare it with?
[00:21:30] Rod: Well, it just so happens, there are two leading independent Cooper investigators and at least one of them has a lot of street credit. He's a paleontologist and understands the sciences and stuff.
[00:21:38] Will: Okay. Obviously, cause DB Cooper was a dinosaur?
[00:21:41] Rod: Yes, he was.
[00:21:42] Will: Like, like how does he have paleontological expertise? Great expertise.
[00:21:45] Rod: I got hobbies.
[00:21:46] Will: I don't doubt they've got hobbies. But dinosaur science doesn't translate.
[00:21:51] Rod: I want to do cold cases, not that cold, not dinosaur cold.
[00:21:55] Will: Hobbies are great. Dive on in, but it's not like the expertise carries directly across.
[00:21:59] Rod: He's got some science and he can do DNA. And like he, I think he probably scrapes bones and looks at their NDA. Anyway their names are Ulis and Kaye, Eric Ulis, Tom Kaye. And they reckon there's no way McCoy is Cooper because, and this is what they say, Kaye says the paleontologist, if you had a link on the DNA between the Cooper case and a particular person, that knocks the case out of the park, you'd hear about it right away.
[00:22:21] So saying if Rick's DNA showed connections to Cooper DNA, come on. And he said, I find no reason for the FBI to keep information that's secret, especially if they were looking to solve a cold case after 50 plus years. But these guys are still keen to hunt down who Cooper might've been. So some other evidence, but especially DNA. So where did you get Cooper DNA as you were wondering?
[00:22:42] Will: From his natty suit?
[00:22:43] Rod: From his natty suit
[00:22:45] Will: his glass of bourbon?
[00:22:46] Rod: Probably already been washed. So people said, what about the note he gave to the flight attendant? He took it with him.
[00:22:50] Will: He licked the note, took it away.
[00:22:52] Rod: Gave her the note then took it away.
[00:22:53] Will: He's thorough, isn't he?
[00:22:55] Rod: Which means he's a scientist. Apparently there was a clip on necktie which he pulled off and left behind.
[00:23:00] Will: Neckties aren't a lot of DNA
[00:23:01] Rod: Have you ever analysed a necktie? Festering shit piles of horrible bugs. They're terrible.
[00:23:05] Will: But bugs aren't DNA.
[00:23:07] Rod: Bugs have dNA.
[00:23:08] Will: Yeah, but not our DNA.
[00:23:09] Rod: They eat you then they have your DNA in them.
[00:23:11] Will: That's not how DNA works.
[00:23:12] Rod: Oh, I'm not a tie expert clip on anyway. So anyway, he apparently tore it from his collar before he left.
[00:23:18] Will: Hang on. It was a clip on tie. I think that's a big clue. I know. It's a big clue.
[00:23:22] Rod: I know Everything's opened up now you're like, wait a minute.
[00:23:25] Will: Who would wear a clip on tie?
[00:23:26] Rod: DB Cooper whoever you are. The tie was tested for DNA in 2001. They got a partial DNA profile from it, but the sample could only help them say who wasn't on the plane. I couldn't actually identify. It was only partial. It wasn't enough to actually make a positive identification. So it could discredit potential matches, but not identify the person. And as an aside, Kaye, the paleontologist had got his hands on the tie in 2009 and 2011 and tested it for particulates of pollens and things. That didn't help much. But all this, the other guy reckons that there might be some DNA left in the spindle of the tie.
[00:24:02] Will: What's the spindle?
[00:24:03] Rod: Well, I had to look that up.
[00:24:04] Will: A tie doesn't have that many bits.
[00:24:05] Rod: Apparently a clip on one does. Certain kinds. It's a the spindle of the tie is, ahem, a small clasp built into the knot of the tie that spins and enables the wearer to adjust the knot to their desired size.
[00:24:18] Will: Oh my god.
[00:24:19] Rod: It's like a boa on a snowboard boot, you know, crank it up or a pump on a Reebok pump. Yes. So anyway they reckon that there could be some stuff in the spindle and if they used metagenomic DNA analysis, it's an advanced kind of analysis. They reckon they might be able to separate individual strands of DNA.
[00:24:37] So they are currently, and I mean literally currently, they're in the process of sending the filters, the material, to a specialist lab to conduct metagenomic analysis. But as of literally now, or at least a couple of days ago, nothing.
[00:24:50] Will: Nothing? Oh, I'm surprised. I'm so surprised nothing turned up.
[00:24:54] Rod: Or they don't know if it didn't turn up. They haven't actually heard back because getting this done is not easy. And for some reason the officials didn't want to do it.
[00:25:00] Will: They've got actual cases to do first.
[00:25:02] Rod: Oh no, there are private labs though.
[00:25:03] Will: You've got to find out if you're related to Napoleon II.
[00:25:06] Rod: They're trying to find evidence, trying to find DNA. What about, he left some of the parachutes behind. What about one of them?
[00:25:11] Will: Did he spit on those?
[00:25:12] Rod: Well, there's something that said something about maybe he left some DNA.
[00:25:15] Will: I don't like you and I don't like you.
[00:25:17] Rod: Shit parachute. I'll take this one. Clean, pretty, beautiful. And they reckon he might've stuck his hand in to pull some card out. I don't know what the card is.
[00:25:26] So one of these parachutes is with the Washington state historical society. And I imagine a bunch of older retired folk who really care about history. One of our prized possessions is this parachute.
[00:25:38] Will: Yeah. But they might know this might be the key that will unlock the case or not.
[00:25:42] Rod: Of course it is. So apparently Kaye, the paleontologist had been scheduled to conduct tests on that parachute in 2023. But then the museum changed its mind a few weeks before the tests were due and they wouldn't tell Kaye why.
[00:25:56] Will: Is DB Cooper running the museum?
[00:25:58] Rod: I reckon he is. And a whole chain of museums across the country. This was around the time that the FBI had reopened the case getting the DNA from Rick McCoy the son. Yep. Yep That's everyone's going like Oh, okay. So Kaye speculates the FBI blocked the tests and asked to examine the shoot themselves.
[00:26:16] And he said, look, I was quite surprised. I've been in museums around the world. I've asked to see multi million dollar specimens and with my credentials, I get access. Back off, man, I'm a paleontologist.
[00:26:26] Will: Any sort of thing? Like, can I just steal a painting? I'm a paleontologist.
[00:26:29] Rod: Yeah. It's a million dollars.
[00:26:30] Will: That sculpture, the freaking Rosetta Stone. I want the Mona Lisa. I'm a paleontologist. Stand back.
[00:26:36] Rod: So apparently he's saying this is weird because I've had access to much more valuable things than this and then this scamp pulls the plug.
[00:26:42] Will: Sure. I've had access to much more valuable things does not mean you get access to things of the same value.
[00:26:47] Rod: And he said, don't you know who I am? I've touched tyrannosaurus in Vietnam. So he's saying, look, I reckon it's because they're studying it themselves and they don't want anyone getting in the way. And he goes on, it was all kind of a mystery. I don't have any knowledge of why they would close off access to the parachute.
[00:27:00] But it's interesting that in the last year, we brought up the subject of DNA publicly and how to go about getting Cooper's DNA and try to get access to what he left behind. It happens right now and suddenly the FBI have been saying it's the case is closed, suddenly they open it up again. And he says, it's an interesting coincidence for sure. We don't have any evidence. But it is very coincidental.
[00:27:21] Will: It's not really. They just might want to do it at the same time. Like, it comes up.
[00:27:26] Rod: Or the people at the Washington State Historical Society just cantankerous old shits and they don't want to, they're like, no. We've changed our mind. We have the power.
[00:27:33] Will: I still think that's where DB Cooper is.
[00:27:35] Rod: So well, this is a wholesome verdict, man. What do you reckon? What's happening? I'm giving you all this information.
[00:27:40] Will: Look, I'm going to say, it's none of these people, I think they're all frauds, I think the only, only legit evidence is that kid found the cash in the ravine. I think DB Cooper is impaled on a tree somewhere in a forest, somewhere deep in the woods.
[00:27:53] He's a Skellington. And I'm sorry, find the Skellington, with no tie but a natty suit around him and a parachute, that's where he is.
[00:28:00] Rod: That's what you reckon. So you reckon we could find him?
[00:28:02] Will: Oh, theoretically. Theoretically, yes.
[00:28:06] Rod: After 50 years in the elements, how will the bones do after 50 years or more?
[00:28:09] Will: Oh, it depends on the environment, of course. You know, if you're down the bottom of a pirate cave, you last for about 100 years. Yeah. Up on Mount Everest, you last for 200 years. In a forest, probably not that long. That's the only legit clue. Like as a legit cold case guy, that's the only clue.
[00:28:26] Rod: Yeah. But it's still going. That's what I love. Like they're still, they're squabbling over it. Like last week they're fighting. I mean, I want to know what's different. Well, I reckon, no, none of these people are him. I reckon they probably won't find him. But my question is also what if they did?
[00:28:38] So what? And for me, I'm like, cool, if science can help solve that, then they can also find out who's Jack the Ripper. But I also want to know who the fuck it was who, in fourth grade, stole my favorite pencil sharpener. I wonder if they can help me with that.
[00:28:49] Will: You know who it was.
[00:28:51] Rod: I do, actually. But I won't say his name because he's probably a listener and I don't want to lose a fan.
[00:28:55] Will: Give me back his pencil sharpener!
[00:28:57] Rod: I'm looking at you, L. P. So, there's two things hanging still. A, the cheek swab from Rick McCoy, we don't know about that and maybe we never will, but there's also the Metagenetics thing where the the tie is out there somewhere waiting for metagenetic research.
[00:29:14] Now, I'd like to say we'll keep you up to date, but maybe Stephen from Adelaide could keep us up to date and then we can report onwards.
[00:29:19] Will: Oh, yeah. We'll let you know.
[00:29:23] Rod: I don't want to speculate what we might consider doing for another episode at some point. I would say next week, but we can't guarantee that.
[00:29:32] Will: We're now in the world to hearing, or at least we know the sound of whale songs. There was a time when we didn't. And there was a time then we suddenly did and it's all thanks to an experimental 1970s, you can't call it prog rock, but it's not it's a 70s concept album by Roger Payne, his album of whale songs, which went absolutely dynamite. And I just want to explore the moment when that happened, when people like, Fuck yeah, I'm putting some whale songs on.
[00:30:05] Rod: So he recorded them?
[00:30:06] Will: I think so. I don't know the story. Roger Payne's album of whale songs. So not synthesized these, he must've recorded and it was a moment of people just going, Oh my damn, is that in the ocean? Is this a thing?
[00:30:16] Rod: You can put a tape recorder in a plastic bag and catch up the whales?
[00:30:18] Will: No one had done that before. Pirates had stuck their head under the ocean
[00:30:22] Rod: But under duress. They don't like water. That's the weird thing people don't know about pirates. They don't like swimming.
[00:30:26] Will: Yeah, they don't like being pirates.
[00:30:28] Rod: Nah. I got one. I'm wondering about this whole five stages of grief thing. In other words, oh, there's five stages of grief and more and more I'm seeing, you know, they're not. It's all bullshit.
[00:30:37] Will: Well, do you want me to put you through some grief and you can
[00:30:41] Rod: I'm grieving now. I'm in stage seven though. It's the party stage of grief.
[00:30:45] Will: The party stage of grief. I thought it was seven stages anyway.
[00:30:50] Rod: Maybe it is. Where else you got?
[00:30:51] Will: In the 1970s. It's another 1970s one. A bunch of tobacco companies spent a hundred million dollars trying to make a safer cigarette.
[00:30:59] Rod: In the 70s?
[00:31:00] Will: In the 70s. Yeah, this is like go to the moon money.
[00:31:03] Rod: Wait, this is 3 percent of our income.
[00:31:05] Will: But it's like go to the moon money. Because all of the stories are about, you know, how bad smoking was at the time. And they said, well, you know, we should make a safer. Yeah. I think they were going, okay, we can't call it safe, but they went safer. And, um, spoiler. No they sold it. Like it, it went to market and people people bought it.
[00:31:25] Rod: It was like on the fifth element where it's 90 percent filter and then a little bit of tobacco at the end.
[00:31:29] Will: I don't know about that. I think the main thing is it was more cellulose and less dynamite? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
[00:31:36] Rod: That wouldn't be hard for making cigarettes out of dynamite at the time. I've got an idea. Gunpowder,
[00:31:41] Will: so I just liked the idea that they were not being good guys, but trying to be nicer evil guys and they spend a lot of money and I'm happy with that.
[00:31:49] Rod: Unless someone dials in, I want to know that one. I want to know about the Durries.
[00:31:53] Will: You got any others?
[00:31:54] Rod: I'm interested in, just lately I'm seeing a lot about all these, all boys schools at least in Australia going, nope, we're going to go co ed now. And I'm like, what's that about? I'm also interested in the history and the Let's call it less than firm arguments for and against single sex schools.
[00:32:08] Will: Oh my god. I thought about that. It's such a big area. I think we need eight experts and a panel and lots of jokes because obviously it's all depressing.
[00:32:20] Rod: I went to an all boys school and I laughed a lot
[00:32:22] Will: and look at what you turned out like.
[00:32:24] Rod: I know. No, I was lucky. I got expelled in time.
[00:32:28] Will: All right. See you next week.
