Horseshoe theory suggests political extremes loop back around until far-left and far-right ideologies find disturbing common ground. Scientists are using AI to decode brain activity and caption your thoughts, which raises uncomfortable questions about privacy and future thought-policing. And evolutionary biologists discovered that your fingers and toes developed from genetic blueprints originally designed for a fish's cloaca - meaning your hands evolved from ancient fish butt architecture.
Horseshoe Theory: When Extremes Become Identical
Horseshoe theory proposes that as political parties move toward extremes, they loop back around and find disturbing common ground with their supposed opposites. Despite heading in apparently opposite directions, extremists on both wings end up shaking hands over the horseshoe bend, sharing authoritarian tactics, propaganda methods and contempt for democratic norms.
Classic examples include Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany - radically different economic ideologies that intersected in their zealotry, totalitarian control and willingness to commit atrocities. The political spectrum feels more like a roller coaster these days, with extremists on both sides exhibiting similar behaviours despite claiming to represent opposite values. It's a fascinating concept that gets minds spinning, suggesting that ideological purity taken to its extreme produces remarkably similar results regardless of starting position.
Mind Captioning: AI's Terrible Attempt at Reading Thoughts
Scientists are using AI to decode brain activity and translate it into captions, which sounds like science fiction until you realise it takes a hundred guesses to figure out you're watching a waterfall. The technology monitors brain responses and attempts to convert neural patterns into tangible keywords, except the accuracy is pretty low and the implications deeply concerning.
This sets us on a path toward potential thought-policing and dystopian surveillance that sci-fi has warned us about for decades. Despite its nascent and frankly not-great performance, the technology raises serious questions about privacy and the sanctity of our thoughts. The potential is remarkable for medical applications like helping locked-in patients communicate, but it's also concerning for future policing applications where authorities might claim to know what you're thinking - even if the AI is wildly guessing most of the time.
Fish Fingers: Your Hands Evolved From Ancient Fish Butts
If you've ever wondered where your fingers came from, prepare to thank an ancient fish's cloaca. The development of tetrapod digits from fish ancestors involved redeploying genetic blueprints originally designed for the fish's multi-purpose rear exit - yes, the transformation of a fish's butt into limbs is not just humorous but demonstrates evolution's tendency to make do with existing solutions.
Who knew fishy beginnings would have such a hand in creating our ability to, well, create? It's evolution at its most pragmatic and absurd - taking the genetic instructions for one body part and repurposing them for something completely different. Your ability to type, paint, play piano or give someone the finger exists because millions of years ago, evolution looked at fish butt genes and thought, "yeah, we can work with this."
Harry Whitaker: When Science Enthusiasm Goes Explosively Wrong
Harry Whitaker, an ardent science fan who aimed to collect every element from the periodic table, ended up with police at his door after stockpiling explosives, radioactive materials and making racist confessions. What started as harmless curiosity with Frankenstein aspirations turned sinister when nerdy enthusiasm crossed into dangerous territory.
It's a cautionary tale that reinforces the delicate balance between curiosity and caution, reminding us that even well-intentioned scientific interest needs tempering when it inches toward illegal weapons manufacturing.
Until next time, stay curious about political theory, skeptical of mind-reading claims and grateful for fish butt evolution. Oh, and please don't stockpile radioactive materials in your shed.
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Introduction
01:40 Exploring Horseshoe Theory in Politics
03:33 The Impact of Trump on Science and Health Policy
04:38 Pandemic Preparedness and Public Health
09:33 AI Mind Captioning: Decoding Brain Activity
14:13 Evolution of Tetrapod Digits
14:55 Genetic Regulatory Landscapes
15:33 Research on Fish and Mice Genes
16:18 The Role of Hox Genes
19:54 Harry Whitaker's Science Obsession
25:19 Conclusion and Call to Action
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[00:00:00] ROD: So a UK fellow Harry Whitaker. He said he'd been interested in science from the age of about six, developed interest in chemistry, medicine, pharmacology, astronomy, and nuclear physics. Quite from him. I'm just a nerdy kid who likes doing science. He's in his thirties, but you know, nerdy kid, he described himself as a mad scientist who had acquired many of the chemicals he used from the online auction site.
[00:00:21] eBay, you look worried. He likes, uh. Tinker with things in a scientific way in his house as you do. And one of his goals is to collect every element of the periodic table, which of course, every sane human being will want to do and can. So really, he's just innocently curious. So of course he, um, says, I don't make things dangerous.
[00:00:39] It's just all harmless fun, essentially. And as he told the police when they showed up at his house, take precautions so it doesn't harm anyone.
[00:00:53] WILL: It is time for a little bit of science. Mm. A podcast that does a little bit of science
[00:00:59] ROD: for you. Not too much, just science flavored things.
[00:01:02] WILL: Yeah. And yeah. I'm Will Grant, associate professor of science communication at the Australian National University
[00:01:09] ROD: and man with bubonic PLA growing. And yes, I
[00:01:10] WILL: have Bubonic Plague,
[00:01:12] ROD: and I'm Rod Lambert.
[00:01:12] I'm a 30 year sitcom veteran with a mind of a 15. Ish, your old boy, and as well as
[00:01:18] WILL: as, uh, your collector.
[00:01:20] ROD: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:20] WILL: Um, what have we got today? We've got some yay horseshoe theory,
[00:01:24] ROD: which I've, if you've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times. I've got a bit of a, and maybe too much, I, I, I'm going to talk about my generation.
[00:01:32] I like that. Um, I've discovered that evolution has a sense of humor and well then at the end, we'll round up with our opening story, which is really called, mate. I was just trying to science, Hey sir, have you heard of Horseshoe Theory? Is it to do with. The blood of horseshoe crabs being blue and you can use it to, I think it's extend life indefinitely.
[00:01:50] WILL: No, I, I mean, I wish it was that. Yeah, it's not. I wish it was that. Is it something to do
[00:01:54] ROD: with the graph?
[00:01:54] WILL: Uh, with the graph?
[00:01:56] ROD: The shape of a graph like being a horseshoe?
[00:01:58] WILL: Uh, yes. It is a [00:02:00] horseshoe shaped graph.
[00:02:01] ROD: It's
[00:02:01] WILL: a graph, yeah. Oh, well, it comes from that sort of look. It's a theory of politics. I, I wouldn't say it's a theory that the political scientists have latched onto and said, yay, this explains the world.
[00:02:11] But it, it's a useful theory. Basically the idea is that the further you go to either extreme of the political spectrum Yeah. The
[00:02:18] ROD: smarter you get.
[00:02:19] WILL: No, no. You sort of loop around and you might join up with people on the other side.
[00:02:25] ROD: So you basically, you throw a ball hard enough, it goes right around the world and hits in the bum.
[00:02:28] WILL: Uh, it's something like that politically speaking. So it's the physics. Okay. I mean, so it's sort of classic examples of this is that, you know, the Stalinist Russia went so far extreme to the left and they end up being super totalitarian. Looked a lot like another totalitarian regime, like the Nazis, which were extreme to the right.
[00:02:45] ROD: Wait, the Stalinists weren't left.
[00:02:47] WILL: They were left were that
[00:02:48] ROD: believed in the workers
[00:02:50] WILL: controlling production.
[00:02:51] ROD: So that's one of the classes. As long as the workers were Stalin and his buddies.
[00:02:54] WILL: Now look, I some workers, some workers, I don't think, I don't think, I think what this is missing is that, um, reality.
[00:02:59] Well, no, no. I think, I think there's other things going on. Yes. People of extreme positions also tend to be dehumanizing other people and might think, you know, my idea is so right. I can just do what I want with it. So yeah, greater good. That sort of thing tends to turn up on the extremes. Yes. But I read an article today.
[00:03:16] And I was just like, oh, oh you guys, you got there in the end. And I was just like, little clap because this is, this is just my favorite example of Horseshoe Theorying manifesting itself, uh, in the real world. I'm like, which
[00:03:30] ROD: guys? In which end?
[00:03:31] WILL: Okay, we all know. Donald Trump has, uh, done a lot to, uh, science in America
[00:03:38] ROD: for science
[00:03:39] WILL: well for it.
[00:03:39] He's, and, and one of his key things has been bringing in Robert F. Kennedy Jr. As Health and Human Services Director. Renowned scientist. Yeah. Renowned Well, yeah. There's a, there's a lot to critique in RFK Junior's engagement with sites. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I've heard rumors, but two of their picks for director of the National Institutes of Health and Deputy [00:04:00] Director, oh, uh, Jay Batter cha.
[00:04:01] He's the director and Matthew Meli. Now, just to frame this for people, national Institute of Health are one of the world's biggest funders of health research. Yeah. Like all, any, anything to do with health. Yeah. They fund heaps. They do heaps. They, they're doing a little bit less now under Trump, but
[00:04:17] ROD: I, I think they might even be not only one off, if not the world's largest.
[00:04:20] WILL: So, you know, they have funded all sorts of things over the last 50 years. So a lot of people in the scientific world are like, oh, I'm a little bit concerned. The, the fox is in charge of the hen house. You know, bat Chaia and Mii put out a, an opinion piece in an article in City, city Journal that I think is this great example of Horseshoe Theory.
[00:04:37] Okay. Okay. So just to give you a bit, a bit of background on Bat Chaia, he is a long-term professor of medicine, economics, and health research policy at Stanford University. Never heard of it. So he's, he's got chop. Okay. He was an opponent throughout COVID of Lockdowns and mask mandates. So he was from that side of things,
[00:04:54] ROD: but not alone.
[00:04:55] There are a lot of people with various views on disease who. At least ended up in that space. Yeah.
[00:05:01] WILL: And so Char and Memo, they're saying, all right, pandemic preparedness wasn't what we needed. I don't think you have to be a, a medical scientist or a rocket scientist or a public healths anything to say,
[00:05:12] ROD: or a brain owner.
[00:05:14] WILL: Yeah. To, to say, okay, the pandemic perhaps didn't go perfectly. Like, no, I don't think anyone's arguing. I give it a B minus and, and they're saying, look, our preparedness, and this is looking at NIH funding and globally, but NIH funding. Mm. Looked at three main things. First, catalog every existing pathogen by sending scientists to every remote, uh, place, bat caves in China and things like that.
[00:05:35] Geez. Take biological samples of wildlife, bring 'em back to labs and, uh, study them. Okay. Two, see if you can make them more infective. Cool. Now this is what's called gain of function research. Yes. It's, and in this article, they're calling it dangerous gain of function. Now, I think gain of function research is something that had a huge question on it.
[00:05:52] Mm-hmm. So basically the point is, take a, take an existing virus or pathogen, see if you can use some sorts of genetic engineering technology or something [00:06:00] like that to make it worse.
[00:06:01] ROD: Yeah. But we're doing it, it's like scientific wailing. Uh, we've gotta kill 'em to understand so we can protect them. And I, I feel like this is a bit similar.
[00:06:08] WILL: So, I mean, a lot of people argued, basically what this does is tells us where diseases might evolve.
[00:06:13] ROD: Mm
[00:06:13] WILL: sure. And, and then we'd be ready for them.
[00:06:15] ROD: Mm-hmm. A
[00:06:16] WILL: lot of other people say evolution is super complex. There's so many places it can involve. What, what is this gonna tell us? It's got like one lock or two lock, you know, for this.
[00:06:25] ROD: Yeah. And, and yet other people say, thanks for building super biological weapons. Yeah. Thanks.
[00:06:29] WILL: And then. Third, having identified a few, which you reckon might be the problematic ones. Mm-hmm. Make some vaccines on the basis of that. Now what? Look, their argument, and I'm not buying into all of their argument, I just want to get to their end point.
[00:06:40] Mm. Is that this is, this is full of risk and danger, but also maybe just makes sort of industries, the vaccine makers that just have a, a lock in and it's not actually getting us prepared for the pandemic. Yeah. Uh, or any future pandemic. Yeah. So. They get to the end and say, look, this kind of, this kind of go out there, make the worst pathogen you can have, make up some, make up some vaccines based on that, which is all speculative.
[00:07:04] Uh, it's not the right way. So instead there's a much better way. And they said, okay, what we should do is we should look around the world, uh, the countries that did best out of the pandemic.
[00:07:15] ROD: So Zambia everywhere. Not in Scandinavia.
[00:07:19] WILL: No. No. So flog stand, here's, here's their argument. We should learn from a recent example, a metabolically healthy population, physically active and eating nutritious food.
[00:07:28] Ah, we'll cope far better in the face of a novel pathogen. Quakers, Sweden. Sweden without lockdown or school closures was the best in the world at protecting human life. During the COVID pandemic Uhhuh, it had the lowest level of age adjusted or cause excess deaths. 2020 to December 20th, 2004. Yeah. Sweden succeeded in part because its people are relatively metabolically healthy.
[00:07:48] By contrast, oh, the US chronic disease crisis. All but guaranteed that Americans would've one of the highest mortality rates in the world. Ultimately, uh, public health agencies encouraging people to take whatever steps [00:08:00] they can to improve their health mm-hmm. Will have a dramatic effect during the next pandemic, whether simply by stopping smoking, controlling hypertension, or diabetes, or getting up and walking more.
[00:08:08] Anything that makes the population healthier will prepare us better for the next pandemic. And I was like, I understand. I just, I just love, you know, you've come through this. Hatred of the, the COVID-19 state. You've come through all of this, you know, fairly extreme reaction to vaccines and stuff like that.
[00:08:24] Yeah. And you get to a place where, you know what we need? Just get healthy public health like we should. We should invest in public health. And I'm like, horseshoe theory man. You came out the other side. You got it right in the end.
[00:08:35] ROD: Look. Yeah. Yes. And, but here's my butt. I'm just gonna show it to the microphone.
[00:08:42] So there's a point at which it turns out, no matter how well you are, a pathogen still works on you. And if you're not sure about that, go and look up any high functioning mega training athlete and look at what precious little immune system, less creatures they can become. That's my concern. I completely agree.
[00:08:59] The idea of public agree stopping at the point of let, let's enhance public health a hundred percent. Bang my hands together till their bloody stumps of meat. But you know, you know it's gonna go too far. I, I completely, I
[00:09:08] WILL: completely agree. Like, of course it's not either or. It's, it's, you know, why don't, why don't we orient towards health as much as we can and, and backup plans and, but still it's Robert F.
[00:09:19] Kennedy and his buddies. You know, they got there in the end. They did. Let's look at public health.
[00:09:25] ROD: Yeah. Okay. I'll, I'll give you that. At least there. Come to where everyone who had a brain already knew they should be.
[00:09:30] WILL: There you go.
[00:09:33] ROD: So researchers have been, uh, able to accurately predict what a person is seeing or hearing using brain activity for nearly 10 years.
[00:09:40] Wait,
[00:09:41] WILL: okay. So,
[00:09:41] ROD: so look at brain activity and go, you're looking at a picture of a stomach. What they couldn't do is really. Interpret or decode brain's interpretations of complex content, like a short video or abstract shape. So they can't kind of go, ah, you're watching a video of a dude spinning plates while he is wearing shorts.
[00:09:59] WILL: Sure. Okay. That [00:10:00] might be a little bit more complicated than one static image.
[00:10:02] ROD: Yeah, apparently. Apparently we can't decode that so well, but they've been able to identify key words that, that describe what a person saw and not the full thing. So a new technique called mind captioning. Oh has been brought.
[00:10:14] So mind capturing, it generates descriptive senses of what a person is seeing or picturing in their mind from a readout of their brain activity. That's wild, isn't it? That's so wild, isn't it? So the model apparently predicts what a person's looking at with quote, a lot of detail, not that's technical term.
[00:10:29] So the method, right? First they do a deep language AI model analysis of the captions of more than 2000 videos. So it's already been Ah, okay. Captions have been created related to videos, and then they kind of AI them. Right.
[00:10:42] WILL: Okay. We're starting from the videos. I thought we were starting from the
[00:10:43] ROD: brains.
[00:10:44] Apparently not. They turn each one into a unique numerical meaning signature. Mm-hmm. You know the ones, mm-hmm. Next, they set a separate AI tool, gets trained on six people's brain scans as part of the method sure learns the brain activity that patterns that match each signature. A meaning signature that they've created from the previous bunch of work while the participants watch the videos.
[00:11:05] So they're getting links to the meaning s is what they think. Getting connections, patterns. So the video might be something like a person jumping off the top of a waterfall.
[00:11:12] WILL: Yeah.
[00:11:12] ROD: Okay. Which is, you know, quite complicated really. So once it's trained, apparently the Dakota could read a new brain scan from a person watching the video.
[00:11:19] WILL: A different person.
[00:11:20] ROD: Yep. And predict. What it might be. Then a different AI generator would search for a sense that comes closer to the meaning signature, decode it from the individual's brain and go, this is what they're looking at. So that was the method. That's what they tested and were theorizing.
[00:11:35] Sounds fine. That sounds impressive, isn't it? So how'd it go? So for a waterfall jumping bid, for example, the AI model gets the strings of words, and it started with spring flow. Uh, sure. Then it progressed apparently to above rapid falling water on the hundredth guest, and finally gets to, oh, sorry, this was.
[00:11:52] The hundredth guess got a bit better. It got to a person jumps over a deep waterfall on a mountain ridge, so it took a hundred guesses from the brain [00:12:00] scan to go the person seeing someone jumping over over deep waterfall on a mountain ridge. If I
[00:12:04] WILL: a to guess what you're thinking of
[00:12:06] ROD: by looking at my brain
[00:12:07] WILL: still.
[00:12:08] Either way. By, by looking at your face or anything.
[00:12:10] ROD: Okay. I
[00:12:10] WILL: wouldn't, I wouldn't say a hundred guesses means I'm an, uh, a mentat, you know? Yeah. Like
[00:12:15] ROD: a mind reader. I, no, we can test it. Okay. What am I thinking about?
[00:12:18] WILL: It's. Do you remember that thing in, in being John Malkovich, where he is like, I'm gonna guess your name.
[00:12:23] And he's like, is it,
[00:12:31] I feel like a hundred guesses. Come on. That, that that's not cool.
[00:12:35] ROD: Yeah. I admit as I, as I was reading through, I'm going, cool, cool, cool. A hundred. It's early days. Yeah. Okay. And of course, the question with this comes up, are there any concerns about tech like this? Today or in the future? Well, I'm struggling to see what the use is that's reading brains.
[00:12:49] WILL: Beneficial.
[00:12:51] ROD: They say it couldn't reveal intimate thoughts and, you know, emotions and health conditions that people might not wanna expose if you walk around scanning people with your magical tricorder. I,
[00:12:59] WILL: I assume this isn't something you can
[00:13:01] ROD: just do on the street,
[00:13:02] WILL: I
[00:13:02] ROD: assume. No, it is not,
[00:13:03] WILL: it's, you might need to be plugged in a little bit,
[00:13:05] ROD: a little bit plugged in.
[00:13:06] Multiple AI models, many, many iterations. So, you know, you kind of, but it's easy to kind of go, it'll be fine, bro, because they say, for example, with the studies, it was cool. The experiments we did are cool because we got consent and stuff. So don't worry about that. Fine. But anyway, look, yes, it could help people with communication difficulties.
[00:13:21] However, it could also go further once you get that scanning technology to be, let's say, even vaguely portable Uhhuh Uhhuh, which right now it even vaguely isn't.
[00:13:30] WILL: Look, I, I think in the US right now with ICE, using a whole bunch of those apps to identify people. Mm, I, I, I can imagine a police state in the future that's like, okay, we'll, we'll do a little bit of thought testing, pop
[00:13:39] ROD: this little cap on your head, you know, what are you thinking?
[00:13:41] Mm. It sounds a little bit, you know, hysterical, but
[00:13:45] WILL: I feel like, I feel like this is, you know, it's another one of those examples of, you know, what is the sci-fi novelist? Finally, I've written a classic novel. That were warn against ever using the something, something technology. Yeah. Technologists. Yay.
[00:13:56] We've invented the something, something technology from the classic novel. Thanks for the idea, champ. [00:14:00] Did you read The Moral It's true. Like learn the lesson.
[00:14:03] ROD: No, no. We heard a bit about the brain scans and the captioning. We thought, sweet. That's all we can do. That's technology. Have tool will use. Yeah. And the morals, they're for someone else, it's a different area.
[00:14:13] So evolution it turns out, is quite amusing. Did you know that well? Yes. Good. Well, I won't tell you this story then. No. 'cause you already know. So Tetrapods creatures, what have four limbs? They do. They do tetrapods evolved digits, so fingers, toes, et cetera.
[00:14:30] WILL: Yeah.
[00:14:30] ROD: From fish ancestors. And it's why and how this happened is something people or scientists in particular have been trying to work out how and why did that?
[00:14:38] Actually come about. So one school says, oh, it's pretty simple. The digits they derived from fins of our fish ancestors, which kind of makes sense. Mm-hmm. 'cause you know, they're the, they're kind of like arm and hand and leg spinoffs. So that's cool. But there are other ideas as well. And one in particular has come up recently.
[00:14:55] So the, looking at specific genes, so this says the development of tetrapod digit formation is encoded in genes called the haws, D-H-O-X-D. Oh, okay. Hawked mob, they form part of a large, I love this too. Regulatory landscape. Oh wow. Okay. Mm-hmm. Genetic regulatory landscape. That, that sounds so exciting, doesn't it?
[00:15:17] It's like, I really want to, I don't wanna do bureaucracy, but I'll go and do genetics. It still is a regulatory landscape. So they said, well, let, let's check out Hawked genes in. Creatures to see if that's where they came from. See, yeah, let's see where they pop up in the house. So it's time to compare fish with mice, obviously.
[00:15:31] Yep. First step. So us and Swiss researchers, they got a zebra fish. There was genome thereof and mouse genomes, especially the regions that lurk next to and around the ho genes that contain DNA switches that control those genes. Turns out zebra fish, you know they don't have digits, but dunno if you knew that those fish don't have fingers, fish fingers.
[00:15:54] That's really fucking funny. And they're missing some of the hoked jeans. Not all of them, but some. [00:16:00] But they still have the same genetic regulatory landscape. So there's a a lot of similarity between the FIS and the M. So are we saying that that
[00:16:07] WILL: ready for digits, but not
[00:16:09] ROD: quite? Maybe? Yeah. So there's this like, there's a similarity, but it's not exactly the same.
[00:16:13] So there's some adjacent or hoed adjacent genes in there. And so they start say, well, what function does this landscape actually originally perform? What was it for originally to have this thing set up in the evolutionary speaking? So basically the question is, why do non digit fish. End up leading to things with digits that makes no sense.
[00:16:31] It's crazy. So the researchers did the smart thing. They tagged a bunch of the jeans with little switches in the mice and the zebra fish to make them fluorescent if they appeared and where they appear. So they said, okay, these are these things when they express, when the jeans appear, they'll glow in captivating safety colors.
[00:16:47] And so they wanted to have a little look at what would happen for mice. The markers lit up the markers with these jeans around their digits. Yes. As you'd expect. Yes. That's where they went for the fish. The markers made fireworks around the genitals. Yeah. Cloaker. So now they're going, okay, that, that's hot.
[00:17:07] Why don't we see what happens when you remove some of these genes and see what they develop into. So they, um, put out the old Crispus scissors, you know, severed some bits, let them rejoin, got rid of the relevant genetic. Parts of the regulatory landscape. Mice that lost those genes, their fingers and toes developed weirdly, oh, I couldn't get details, but like they, it was affected.
[00:17:25] So it does affect the digits they're affected. The fish fins were fine, but their cloakers were less fine if less evident or perhaps functionally hooray for them. I know for them we've stopped the fish being able to,
[00:17:37] WILL: so are we saying we got our fingers from our bums? Well
[00:17:41] ROD: from fish bums anyway. Yeah, from their bums, fish multifunction holes is, is the theory.
[00:17:46] So what is a developmental geneticist to do from a University of Geneva says, look, the fact that these genes are involved is a striking example of how evolution innovates and recycles the old to make the new. Rather than building a new regulatory system for digits, [00:18:00] et cetera, need to repurpose an existing mechanism initially active in the cloaker.
[00:18:05] But why? It's evolution,
[00:18:08] WILL: man. It's mysterious. I mean, surely the fish were picking stuff up with their bombs or something. Is that what they're saying? Yes, absolutely.
[00:18:13] ROD: No, they're just trying to say, well, look, look, it's just, it's just repurposing of things. You're like, why would it choose that though? And the only argument I could find, why would that be the cloaker that turns into fingers and toes?
[00:18:23] Mm-hmm. You're like, well, one research says, oh, look, the common feature between the cloaker and the digits. Is they represent terminal parts of the body. Sure.
[00:18:32] WILL: So does hair. Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, know. So your shoulders like,
[00:18:35] ROD: yeah. So like really that's, that's what you got. Sometimes they're at the end of tubes in the digestive system.
[00:18:42] Sometimes the end of their feet in the hands. Therefore both Mark the end of something.
[00:18:46] WILL: Okay. Alright. Uh,
[00:18:47] ROD: to which I say, hmm. Anyway, so this article was published in Nature September of 2025 and it was called Co-Option of an Ancestral Cloacal Regulatory Landscape during Digit Evolution, which is equally boring, but also sounds like it's almost saying it's something really wrong.
[00:19:06] It hint, it's got the hints. You're like, oh, there's digits and there's K Cloak Cloak. Yeah. Clo Exta. Yes. Anyway, to me it was like, oh, that's tantalizingly naughty, but not quite. Anyway, I dunno. Do you believe the, uh, it's 'cause it's a terminal thing. 'cause for me it's like, no
[00:19:19] WILL: dude, dudes.
[00:19:20] ROD: I don't, don't, no,
[00:19:21] WILL: I think the jump between evolution in phylogeny, so that's like what the body looks like.
[00:19:26] Oh. Versus, you know, in the DNA. Yeah. Like I know that they're related. Yeah. But you can understand why having proto eye Yeah. Sensing light. Yeah. And it would get better and better at sensing things. You can understand that jump.
[00:19:38] ROD: Yes.
[00:19:39] WILL: But that whole
[00:19:40] ROD: butthole to your thumb.
[00:19:41] WILL: Well, via, via your DNA. Like, I'm like, I really, I don't understand.
[00:19:46] ROD: Yeah. I'm waiting for the next photo that comes out and goes, oh, oh, we, we were wrong. Ah, well, well, we weren't quite right anyway. Yay for science. So I started at the beginning of this, uh, this delicious episode, tell you about Harry Whitaker. [00:20:00] Just to remind everyone, he's the self-professed nerdy kid who just likes doing science, collect every element.
[00:20:05] He wants to collect every element of the periodic table. Absolute. Yeah, no, I mean, I dunno if that includes the ones that they've been created in a lab and only exist for 14 picoseconds. He said he doesn't make things dangerous. It's just all harmless fun. And, um, he told that to the police when they turned up at his house.
[00:20:21] So what happened? Harry had himself called the paramedics after suffering from anaphylaxis. He had anaphylactic shock. He was finding it hard to breathe. And he said, this anaphylactic not shock, they just call it anaphylaxis. He said it was triggered by his mother's Pope.
[00:20:35] WILL: Oh, oh, oh, the Pope. So when
[00:20:37] ROD: the paramedics showed up, they went, oh, he's also suffering from hives.
[00:20:40] He's got a wheezing, cough. Fuck. What do we do with this guy? It's not clear what's going on. And they said. Pop per, no, we don't believe you. And he goes, alright, I'll, I'll take you to my lab. The shed in his mom's backyard. So he goes out to the shed, takes them there, and they go, oh fuck, look at this. He's got black gun power, flash power, firework pellets, fuses, and quote lethal poisons.
[00:21:01] Ah, in there. Some of the chemicals they found even included radioactive matter.
[00:21:06] WILL: Yes. Well that will be obviously
[00:21:08] ROD: if you're collecting every element, you've gotta have it. Yep. White phosphorus, which can ignite when exposed to oxygen. No biggie. They found a copy of Home Workshop explosives. A pamphlet.
[00:21:18] WILL: Okay.
[00:21:18] ROD: Written by Underground Chemist who goes by the name Uncle Fester.
[00:21:22] WILL: Right. Okay. This sounds a little bit. Further away from just collecting than I It does initially thought.
[00:21:27] ROD: Well, he's a science nerd and he's into a lot of things. Apparently Uncle Feor has also written things like The Secrets of a Met Am Femine manufacturer.
[00:21:34] WILL: Yeah, sure. And
[00:21:35] ROD: another one called Silent Death, which is a recipe book for creating Do it yourself nerve gas.
[00:21:40] WILL: Again. Again.
[00:21:41] ROD: It's cool. It's cool. You collecting, you gotta collect nerve. Yeah, I mean, just, just seeing if you can, just curious, just curious. So of course the paramedics said, uh, we're gonna call the police now.
[00:21:50] We've gone a bit far.
[00:21:51] WILL: Yeah.
[00:21:51] ROD: You look like, uh, a terrorism. Yeah. Oh. And so when the police got there, they also found some heroin, which is not an element. So, um, Harry was [00:22:00] arrested and charged with making and possessing explosive substances, but he of course said he was astounded to be arrested. He's like, what?
[00:22:06] I'm just a science nerd. Just, just really into it. During his trial, the court heard evidence from his neighbor, his. He said a fuse, a fumes caused by his experiments were so frequent and accurate that his family had to keep the windows shut and were effectively hostages in their own home. First responders, the paramedics noticed that the shed did not have any ventilation system, Jesus Christ, but a window was broken, which apparently according to Harry, occurred during a previous experiment which had resulted in an explosion from those ingredients.
[00:22:36] Complete coincidence. Poor dude's just cooking up random stuff in his shit. Yeah, just what, and apparently then the trial of course, dug a little deeper and there was a WhatsApp chat he was writing to a friend, or at least let's say someone on WhatsApp, but a little experiment that had gone wrong. At one point I was trying to isolate thorium dioxide.
[00:22:53] Oh, okay. Which I think is fine. It's just like a selfer acne. Sure. Or more. It just reduced down to a radioactive gge.
[00:23:01] WILL: Yeah.
[00:23:01] ROD: That started exploding like a volcano, going absolutely everywhere. Jesus Christ. I had to e evacuate while burnt holes in the tree canopy above it. This is what he's writing on WhatsApp, which.
[00:23:11] Perfectly secure. Like if the police hadn't come,
[00:23:14] WILL: where, where does his curiosity end?
[00:23:16] ROD: Where does it end? I
[00:23:16] WILL: like, like it ends in him dying is the, the only thing, or he gets arrested, like
[00:23:20] ROD: or dying and taking others with him says he supposed in this ongoing chat on WhatsApp, he said, I should be thankful my home isn't radioactive Lll.
[00:23:28] And he goes on to say he look, just the laboratory in the area around it that's gone. Chernobyl, the house is still fine. That's
[00:23:34] WILL: great.
[00:23:34] ROD: That's great. It's gonna be fine. And also if you're wondering. And you probably weren't, but apparently he volunteered to. He said, look at the trial. I've got no problem with anyone regardless of their creed or color.
[00:23:44] Great. Which is what anyone who has no problem with anyone, regardless of creed. No, that's what they always say could be. So the court then heard about racist messages. He exchanges on WhatsApp with his father, including Muslims turn my stomach, which is not subtle. And apparently he was driving by a mosque near his house and talked [00:24:00] about driving into the mosque on a Friday afternoon in a tank to turn 'em into mince meat.
[00:24:04] So that's pretty good. And also things about. Let's say burn. What is it? Burnout remains on a device. I'm not sure what the device was, which said things like, for use on Jews only
[00:24:13] WILL: Jesus Christ.
[00:24:14] ROD: So he's a good guy. They also discovered another container labeled Cylon B Oh my God. You know what that is? I
[00:24:20] WILL: do know what that is.
[00:24:21] ROD: Yeah. That was used for those of you who are delightfully ignorant of this, it was, um, used in the gas chamber, was at Nazi death gap.
[00:24:27] WILL: Who, who says, you know what I want? I wanna make me some zyklon. B.
[00:24:29] ROD: In October this year, he was found guilty on two counts of making explosive substances and two of possessing explosive substances, and he's gonna get sentenced early next year.
[00:24:38] What I love is this caught my attention because in the newspaper I first saw it, the headline was about. Halloween. What? Because he was busted in October, and I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? How Halloween was the headline? Jesus Christ chemist or Mad scientist in Halloween. I'm thinking, oh, this could be a bit of a laugh.
[00:24:55] A bit quirky,
[00:24:55] WILL: actual mad scientist. No. Yeah, just a, just a no
[00:24:58] ROD: basic terrorist, basic science nerd who's really been into it since he was six. So yeah, we'll know early next year. What happened to Harry, or I guess,
[00:25:05] WILL: here's the thing. Maybe don't try and make every element yourself.
[00:25:09] ROD: Also, don't make explosives poisoned or label containers cyclone B
[00:25:13] WILL: also, you know, maybe don't be racist.
[00:25:15] ROD: I mean, we're anti-racist here. Always have been. I
[00:25:18] WILL: think so. Mm. Um, a little bit of science is your, a little bit of science. It's, it's the podcast that gives a little bit of science. Every week into your podcast feed or you can catch us on Twitch if you hit us at the right time. It's usually like Friday afternoons,
[00:25:31] ROD: about three 30 Eastern
[00:25:32] WILL: and
[00:25:32] ROD: Daylight Savings store.
[00:25:33] Yeah. Three 30 ish. So get off work early.
[00:25:35] WILL: You know what to do. Go out there and uh, like, and share and comment and tell your friends.
[00:25:39] ROD: Yep. Send us emails at
[00:25:41] WILL: an email address, you know, the email address us at
[00:25:44] ROD: No. A little bit of science. No, cheers.
[00:25:47] WILL: Cheers at at cheers at a little bit of science com.au. There you go.
[00:25:52] Dot, there's no more dot. You can't do more dots after that. I want another dot. It's full of dot. Do [00:26:00] swans.
