Australia has a list of baby names you are not allowed to use, a church once decided a devil statue was simply too attractive for public viewing, and one German bloke accidentally kayaked his way from Europe to Australia...
This week, we rollercoaster our way between naming laws, sexy satanic art, and a seven year kayaking epic that sounds made up, but trust us, it was very real.
BABY NAMES THE Government Says no too
We start with names, because nothing says “welcome to society” like Government paperwork. It turns out a lot of countries, including Australia, have rules about what you can call your child, and some names are straight up banned. The reasons are usually the same. The name could cause harm, invite ridicule, imply a title, or create a lifelong admin nightmare.
So yes, names like Prince, Princess, and Lucifer can end up on the no list depending on where you live. Which is both funny and slightly confronting. On one hand, it feels like common sense. On the other hand, it is hard to come to terms with. Sadly, there will be no other wizard like Harry Potter.
When a Devil Statue Is Too Hot for Church
Then we head into the world of art, where the Geefs brothers carved a devil statue for a church and accidentally made him too attractive. Like, distractingly attractive. The kind of handsome that apparently had parishioners thinking less about salvation and more about cheekbones.
So the church did what any sensible institution would do when confronted with a sexy satanic sculpture. It panicked and removed it. Which is hilarious, but also a reminder that art has always had the power to unsettle people, sometimes for deep reasons, and sometimes because the devil looks like he belongs on the cover of a romance novel.
This is where Stendhal syndrome comes in too, the idea that beauty can overwhelm you so much you feel dizzy, emotional, even physically unwell. Whether it is a neat diagnosis or a dramatic way of saying “I got a bit faint in Florence”, it is still a great concept.
Hackable AI
AI is pretty gullible. It’s easy to flatter and even easier to trick. Researchers tested how little it takes to steer an AI agent away from “truth” and towards whatever someone wants it to recommend, and the answer is depressing but also rather funny.
An 11 to 15 word snippet can be enough to hijack the result, especially when the question is specific and the AI is leaning on sources like Reddit or Wikipedia. It does not stop to ask, “Is this someone gaming me?” It just nods politely and then repeats itself.
So yes, SEO is evolving. Now it’s AI optimisation. And if you’ve ever felt even slightly uneasy about letting AI make decisions for you, this is your reminder to keep your brain switched on. Is it artificial? Yes. Is it intelligent? Absolutely not.
The MAGIC Onion Gene?
Nutrition research is a circus at the best of times. People forget what they ate, lie about what they ate, change what they eat, and then we all just pretend the data is clean. So researchers are always hunting for something more solid than self reports. Something closer to an objective signal.
Scientists looked at whether genes that are linked to taste and smell can act as proxies for food preferences. They ran the numbers across a huge dataset and found a lot of associations, but one stood out amongst the rest as rather bizarre and surprisingly strong.
Onions.
There’s a specific variant of a smell receptor gene that seems to line up with people who genuinely like the smell and taste of onions. And those same people also show lower odds of type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure. No, it does not prove onions are a magic health hack. But it does give researchers a cleaner thread to pull on, and it raises the kind of question that makes you stare at your cutting board like it’s doing something behind your back.
Also, if we can find an onion preference in your genes, we should absolutely be allowed to find the gene responsible for putting olive oil and salt on vanilla ice cream and calling it “delicious”.
Oskar Speck and the Kayak Trip That Escalated Wildly
Finally, we get to Oskar Speck, who set out from Germany during a collapsing economy and somehow ended up in Australia by kayak. Not as a stunt. Not as a sponsored endurance challenge. Just a man trying to outrun a bad situation, one paddle stroke at a time, and then realising he had committed to something enormous.
The journey took seven years and included malaria, dangerous crossings, prison camps during World War II, and the general problem of turning up in remote places in a kayak and trying to explain yourself.
It is one of those stories that makes modern travel feel easy. Miss a flight today and you get a voucher. Miss a safe landing in 1930s island waters and you might not get a tomorrow.
So that is the week. Governments policing baby names, churches getting flustered by hot devils, and a kayaking odyssey that makes your weekend plans look laughably small. Stay curious, stay sceptical, and if you are naming a child, maybe check the banned list before you commit to Lucifer James.
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Banned Baby Names Setup
00:33 Germany Name Ban Game
01:50 Lucifer And Other Forbiddens
04:13 New Zealand Weird Bans
05:52 US Rules And Santa Claus
06:58 Australia Banned Names List
09:43 Name Roast Side Hustle
10:34 Hot Art Hospitalization
14:17 Stendhal Syndrome Explained
18:26 Hacking AI Agents
20:41 Prompt Hacking Agents
22:59 Ethical AI Sabotage
23:20 Nutrition Study Pitfalls
24:25 Genes As Diet Proxies
27:40 Onion Gene Surprise
30:22 Ice Cream Taste Debate
30:59 Button Sewing Fails
32:03 Kayaking To Australia
39:54 Just Do Stuff Mindset
41:30 Wrap Up
SOURCES:
https://bsky.app/profile/caesarion10.bsky.social/post/3mnxix4uu7k2r
https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20220110-stendhal-syndrome-the-travel-syndrome-that-causes-panic
https://maritimeheritage.org.au/documents/MHA%20September%202007%20journal.pdf
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2605.24245
https://www.parents.com/banned-baby-name-in-germany-8779188
https://www.sciencealert.com/your-taste-for-onions-may-reveal-something-about-your-future-health
-
[00:00:02] Rod: So there are many ways we ensure we give our children
So there are many ways we ensure we give our children the best start in life, and you'd be aware of this. you, I mean listeners and also William who's sitting here looking at me going, " What terrible things are you gonna say?" How the mothers treat herself during pregnancy, for example, matters. You know, eat well, don't smoke, minimize competitive mixed martial arts fights in your third trimester.
Things like this are frowned upon.
they're more obvious. Another way, though, is to
not
give your kid a horrible name because, you know, psychological effects, risks of discrimination, and so forth. So the governments of many countries have lists of banned names, including Australia. But before I get into ours, we'll do that afterwards, here's a warm-up one.
2017, a German couple went to court ' cause they were told the name they wanted to give their child was not on, because the law in Germany allows authorities to deny names that they feel will harm a child's wellbeing
in
the future. So I'll let you guess while we play our jaunty theme what that name was
[00:00:53] Will: It's time for a little bit of science. I'm Will Grant, an associate professor in science communication at the Australian National University.
[00:01:00] Rod: always sound
You always sound slightly unsure if that's true. Oh. I'm Ron Lambert. I'm a 30-year psych-op veteran with the mind of a 15-year-old boy.
[00:01:08] Will: And today, as well as things what you can't name your kids-
[00:01:11] Rod: Yes
[00:01:11] Will: we've also got... Well, I learned a word.
[00:01:14] Rod: Ah. I'm gonna tell you about
Alzheimer's
Schmalzheimer's.
[00:01:17] Will: We have, of course, some A But Not I.
[00:01:19] Rod: Obviously, obviously. And, um, we're gonna talk about the Gene Genie.
[00:01:22] Will: I'm gonna finish off with a bit of an oopsie.
[00:01:24] Rod: You always do. That's one proper name. Look, look,
[00:01:26] Will: the obvious name, the obvious
[00:01:28] Rod: name- Go on.
now.
[00:01:29] Will: look,
look, the obvious name, the obvious name- What?
[00:01:32] Rod: What?
[00:01:33] Will: and I'm sure there are many Germans who still want to do this, the delightful name of Adolf. Like, I don't think that's banned. that's not banned. That's not banned. is it, No. Oh, what else? Is it Beowulf? Beowulf. Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler. Like, is, is that banned? Like, I s-
[00:01:47] Rod: So Adolf is not banned.
Adolf Hitler is.
[00:01:49] Will: Adolf Hitler is banned.
[00:01:50] Rod: The name was Lucifer.
[00:01:52] Will: Lucifer. Lucy. Yeah. That is a great name for a girl. They're not calling the kid Lucien. Lucien. Just know when he was called Lucifer. No, Luci- but Lucien is clearly Lucifer. Like, it's clearly, like, that's how you hide Lucifer. Yeah, yeah. You go, "
[00:01:54] Rod: No,
end up calling the kid Lucien
[00:01:56] Will: Lucien
[00:01:57] Rod: Just know when you're as cool as Lucifer
[00:01:59] Will: No, Luci- but Lucien is clearly Lucifer. Like, it's clearly- Yeah ... like that's how you hide Lucifer Yeah,
[00:02:03] Rod: yeah, yeah "
[00:02:04] Will: No, I'm Lucien"
[00:02:05] Rod: No,
[00:02:06] Will: Lucien."
[00:02:06] Rod: My son is called Lucien.
[00:02:07] Will: Yeah. Okay. Well, I
[00:02:08] Rod: think it's a pity 'cause that's pretty cool. If I
was
was
Lucifer, I'd be
called Lucifer, I'd be pretty
[00:02:11] Will: proud. Yeah. And remember,
Lucifer
was an angel first, so that, that was like God's favorite angel.
And,
It was. And, and he's like, "I like the name Lucifer. I'm giving this to my best angel."
[00:02:20] Rod: are
[00:02:20] Will: So- You
[00:02:20] Rod: are the bearer of
[00:02:21] Will: light ... yeah, exactly. So number one name. Number two, Gabriel. Number three, like-
[00:02:25] Rod: Michelangelo ... Bertie
[00:02:26] Will: Thrustnist Donatello. Yeah, I think so.
[00:02:29] Rod: so
[00:02:29] Will: I think so. My list. My list of angels. Hey, I'll get some angel content for you in a bit.
[00:02:33] Rod: Oh, this is good. So other
Oh, this is good. So other nein, nein, nein forbidden names in Germany: Satan.
[00:02:37] Will: Oh, yeah, sure.
[00:02:38] Rod: Judas.
[00:02:39] Will: Yeah, that's unfair.
[00:02:40] Rod: Gucci.
[00:02:41] Will: Gucci?
[00:02:42] Rod: Gucci's
[00:02:42] Will: I know. Gucci's banned? It's just like an Italian name. I
[00:02:45] Rod: know.
know. It's, oh, it's 'cause
Plus it's un-German.
[00:02:47] Will: It's un- The house un-German committee. Lenin. Lenin, all right.
[00:02:52] Rod: Yeah.
Eh,
McDonald.
[00:02:54] Will: I assume not the, the Beatle.
[00:02:55] Rod: No, Lenin. Yeah, not Lennon.
Bierstube
[00:02:59] Will: Bierstube. Bierstube?
[00:03:00] Rod: Pub.
[00:03:00] Will: Pub. You can't be named Pub.
[00:03:02] Rod: Pub. Which is
is a pity
[00:03:06] Will: Well, okay. Okay.
[00:03:08] Rod: Whiskey.
Excalibur
[00:03:10] Will: Excalibur. Excalibur. You can't, you ban Excalibur. This is Excalibur
[00:03:13] Rod: Fortunestein.
[00:03:14] Will: See, okay, okay. I confess that, say Satan, you're putting a lot on your kid. It's unfair. That's... You know, but Excalibur, at least you've got, you've got big dreams. Like you know, you're like-
[00:03:23] Rod: You think Satan isn't big dreams as well?
[00:03:25] Will: Well, that's true. That's true. But-
[00:03:26] Rod: Different kind of dreams ...
[00:03:27] Will: yeah, but Excalibur is like, "No, you are mighty. You are the sword that cuts through. You are the-" Gotcha. You, yeah, sure. But Excalibur, would you imagine? What do you shorten that to? Yes. And, and in German they, well, I guess they don't shorten things like that.
Nein. You use the whole name.
[00:03:42] Rod: Whole name.
That's why you got the whole name.
[00:03:44] Will: Excalibur .
[00:03:44] Rod: Excalibur. This is Excalibur Joshtenstein. Also Virginia.
[00:03:51] Will: Okay
[00:03:52] Rod: And
favorite,
Payne
[00:03:53] Will: Payne?
[00:03:54] Rod: Payne. So that's out for the Germans apparently
[00:03:56] Will: Oh, Payne is, well, Payne is a certain, is a last name definitely in, in your Anglo world
[00:04:01] Rod: a
Payne Schmidt
[00:04:02] Will: Payne Schmidt.
[00:04:03] Rod: Mm
[00:04:03] Will: Payne Schmidt Index.
[00:04:04] Rod: Payne
[00:04:05] Will: Index
[00:04:06] Rod: Very close
[00:04:06] Will: There you go, I remembered something
[00:04:07] Rod: So it's probably banned.
You
Cannot have Schmidt Payne in Germany. The Kiwis have a few. There's heaps, a selection.
Prince
and Princess are out. Messiah is out.
Messiah- Put in the- ... Sneller. Snell's the third most common surname
in New Zealand
[00:04:24] Will: in New Zealand.
[00:04:25] Rod: Fanny
[00:04:26] Will: That's banned?
[00:04:27] Rod: Apparently.
[00:04:28] Will: That's like a legitimate name. It's also funny, but that's like banning Dick
[00:04:31] Rod: Yeah, Funny Fanny
[00:04:32] Will: like Dick, yes, of course
[00:04:34] Rod: Does
anyone just call their kid Dick, though? Do they always say, "Richard, we'll call him Dick 'cause it's funny," or is it like, "No, just call him Dick, everyone will"
[00:04:39] Will: No, but Dick is, like it could be a family name.
Like absolutely. There, there are plenty of people called Dick. And,
family
it also is a funny thing. But- Yeah, of course ... you can't ban Fanny. Fanny is a, is a name
[00:04:50] Rod: don't, I
I don't, I don't want
want
my Fanny banned
[00:04:52] Will: No, indeed
[00:04:53] Rod: Isis.
Isis is out
[00:04:54] Will: Yeah, I heard that one. Yeah
[00:04:56] Rod: That's a, that's an
ancient
Greek god, right?
[00:04:58] Will: Yeah, indeed Roman god Indeed Kingkiller
[00:04:59] Rod: Kingkiller?
Kingkiller Very precise One word, King, and then killer,
[00:05:00] Will: K-I-L-L-A-H.
[00:05:04] Rod: K-I-L-L-A-H.
Kingkiller.
[00:05:08] Will: And the Li- and the Lizard Wizard?
[00:05:09] Rod: No, you can't, that, that's not on there
[00:05:11] Will: Oh
[00:05:11] Rod: Notoriety I'm Notoriety Jackson, and you're
like, "Really?"
You're called Note. Sovereign Cash, that's hyphenated,
and the
and Cash is
is spelt with a
spelled with
[00:05:21] Will: a K.
[00:05:22] Rod: And my favorite,
I don't know if you pronounce it or what,
XIX,
so 19
19 in
Roman numerals or ziz, I don't know.
X-I-X Yeah. Xi?
[00:05:29] Will: Hm.
[00:05:30] Rod: Hmm.
Xi
[00:05:30] Will: Six
[00:05:31] Rod: Xix. Xix.
effect. This is Snell
This is k-k-k-ch Snail.
[00:05:34] Will: Yeah. Well, I think the teachers got in on that one and banned that one. They said, "Look, no, come on" No, no's real "Wait, no. We need to be able to say it out loud" No, it's real Like, how do I read the roll?
[00:05:42] Rod: It's
It's 19.
[00:05:42] Will: Maybe it's the, it's the, the, the teachers' union that is, behind all of this, is like- Behind all of it
"How am I supposed to read this out in class?"
[00:05:48] Rod: They have all
In the land of the long
the power. They'll lay it along like cloud decisions behind everything. In the US it can vary state to state. like Massachusetts apparently require, it's put like this: they require a first, middle, and last name to have a maximum of 40 characters.
I think each, not total, 'cause that would be impossible. any of the names can be more than 40 characters
[00:06:07] Will: Really? I mean, but there's definitely traditions with quite long names. Your Welsh and your Polynesians can have some long names
[00:06:14] Rod: allowed in Massachu- no,
allowed in Massachu- no, they can't name their kids in Massachusetts
[00:06:17] Will: Oh, okay.
So they could have the name and then move there
then
[00:06:19] Rod: move there.
Yeah, and then you go, "Well, that's all
[00:06:20] Will: right" Gotta be born outside
[00:06:21] Rod: Seven-
700-character name.
you can't use Jesus Christ, Adolf Hitler, or Santa Claus apparently
[00:06:27] Will: Can't be Santa Claus. No, you're not the real Santa Claus
[00:06:30] Rod: As a little kid they'd be delighted. Like a- Yeah ... a friend of mine, his daughter was,
was...
she was probably,
I don't
don't know, five years old, and it was come as your favorite hero day
[00:06:37] Will: Yeah, yeah
[00:06:38] Rod: And people came as, you know, whatever heroes, like Percy Jackson and blah, blah Oh,
[00:06:41] Will: do you know the Percy Jacksons?
[00:06:43] Rod: Yeah I know, I know all about old children. And she said, "Someone, oh, someone famous" She goes, "Well, I'm going as Santa Claus" So she turns up with a full beard and everything in the middle of the, middle of summer That's
[00:06:51] Will: hilarious
[00:06:52] Rod: It was adorable.
It's like, Santa Claus
I was like, "Santa Claus is
[00:06:54] Will: fabulous" No, that's great
[00:06:55] Rod: It is.
It's fantastic. But apparently in the US Lucifer's okay.
So to Australia, states and territories basically in charge, but there's a fair bit of consistency across them. Apparently- ... there's like 89 banned names. There's a general blanket rule, like no names that have official titles or ranks. So like King, Queen-
[00:07:11] Will: President
[00:07:11] Rod: Prime Minister
[00:07:12] Will: General, Generalissimo
[00:07:13] Rod: Admiral, Dalai Lama
[00:07:15] Will: Dalai Lama who's
[00:07:16] Rod: banned? You can't be called Dalai Lama Grant
[00:07:18] Will: Oh
[00:07:18] Rod: You wouldn't, so you can't be named that here
[00:07:20] Will: Yeah
[00:07:20] Rod: Pope Professor
[00:07:24] Will: Can't be named Professor
[00:07:25] Rod: got to
You've got to earn it
[00:07:26] Will: Oh, well there you go
[00:07:27] Rod: it.
Can't use obscenities, but I mean that
could be
could be anything.
One person's obscenity is another person's poem
[00:07:32] Will: No, there, there are some known obscenities. Like-
[00:07:34] Rod: Poo poo
Poo poo
[00:07:35] Will: Yeah, I think that, I think that would be unfair for a kid to be named Poo Poo Yeah,
[00:07:38] Rod: you've got to let their, their peers work that one out for them. Yeah Um, you also can't use like brands and stuff, so like Ikea or Nutella,
Nutella,
that's out
[00:07:44] Will: Yeah
[00:07:45] Rod: Which is fair.
But here's some specifics.
So
Adolf Hitler is out, yes. Harry Potter is out
[00:07:50] Will: Harry Potter's out?
[00:07:51] Rod: Which I don't know how that's possible because-
[00:07:53] Will: What if your last name is Potter? Which there would be a bunch in Australia, and you can't name your kid Harry
[00:07:59] Rod: There was a thousand-year-old journo called Harry Potter, and there's an Australian rugby union player called Harry Potter, and he's very talented
[00:08:04] Will: So, so those names are banned now?
[00:08:06] Rod: Allegedly
[00:08:07] Will: Wow. Are we gonna go through all the books and just go-
[00:08:09] Rod: If you, Ned
Kelly.
Kelly's out
[00:08:12] Will: Ned Kelly
[00:08:13] Rod: It's all right.
Eddie Vedder
then. I don't care. Like, calm down.
Well, unless I sp- maybe it's if your first name is Ned Kelly,
know, hyphenated or something like,
you know- Oh ... hide behind it or something like, like Mark Wayne what's-his-name in the UK. Mark Wayne,
his name in the US? Mark Wayne.
like choose.
No.
[00:08:23] Will: No. Choose.
[00:08:23] Rod: refuse.
[00:08:23] Will: refuse.
I refuse.
[00:08:25] Rod: Can't call your kid Australia. But in America you got, you got- You can call your kid Australia
But
in America ... yes,
got
[00:08:30] Will: you can.
[00:08:30] Rod: called America. Should have an America. Yes,
You should be expected
Um,
to. Uh, but you can't call them G-Bang.
[00:08:35] Will: G-Bang? Wow.
[00:08:37] Rod: G dash Bang. Ranga.
[00:08:39] Will: Mm.
[00:08:39] Rod: For our international listeners, that's short for orangutan, and that's slang for redheads.
Bong Head.
call
[00:08:44] Will: him
You can't call your kid Bong Head. Well, obviously
[00:08:46] Rod: these are listed, so someone's tried.
[00:08:47] Will: Wow. Yeah, that, that one's sad though. Like I,
though. Like I,
I feel- That's too weird ... I feel like Harry Potter's weird but why that's banned. But Bong Head, I feel the government is doing the right thing there- I agree
to step in and say, "No, no" D-
[00:08:59] Rod: no. It's not even like it's a hippie name, like if you call them, you know, Free Flow or Rainbow.
[00:09:04] Will: Oh, sure.
[00:09:04] Rod: Yeah.
just a
But Bong Head's just
[00:09:06] Will: a bonehead But, but it's also just, it's condemning a kid. Like, and, and, parents do not have the right to condemn an entire, a, a kid, like in that way.
[00:09:12] Rod: No, there's plenty of other ways. Terrorist is out.
[00:09:15] Will: Oh, okay.
[00:09:15] Rod: You can call
You can call him Terry.
That'd be
That's fine. Cyanide is out. Dickhead, you can't call him Dickhead. You
call your kid Dickhead. You can't
can't call him Marijuana.
And we're getting to
And
favorite
getting to my favorite here, you can't call him Panties. I'm like, who would need this list?
[00:09:31] Will: I don't
[00:09:31] Rod: know. Who would need it?
Satan is out. Scrotum is out.
[00:09:34] Will: Oh my God. This
[00:09:35] Rod: is our little boy, Scrot, or little girl, Scrot, probably
be
worse. But you can call him Tum Tum for short, that's nice. Shithead is out, and so is Virgin.
[00:09:42] Will: Wow. Jeez.
[00:09:43] Rod: So the important point is, 'cause I like saying these funny names, that's why I told you the story- Yeah
but it's also for me to spruik, and I've spruiked this before, my service.
[00:09:49] Will: Your service?
[00:09:50] Rod: My service, which is to remind everyone who hasn't been listening for a while, if you're about to name a child-
[00:09:55] Will: Yeah ...
[00:09:56] Rod: for a very low fee of, let's say, $7.99 US, you can give me up to 18 names.
[00:10:01] Will: Nice.
[00:10:02] Rod: And I will put them through my 15-year-old brain and tell you every possible insulting, weird twist on that name, 'cause I have a gift for that.
[00:10:09] Will: Wow. What a service.
[00:10:11] Rod: So this is my service. So just go to www dot- Well, just
[00:10:14] Will: do cheers. cheers@alittlebitofscience.com.au to start.
[00:10:18] Rod: Yeah, and then- And
[00:10:18] Will: you can branch out later ... gotta
[00:10:19] Rod: give you the PayPal, because yeah, it's a special deal for this week only, $7.99 US for 16 names.
[00:10:27] Will: I didn't think you were gonna go there.
Hey, so I, I learnt a new word, and this one-
[00:10:36] Rod: I really enjoy
new words, I'm not gonna
[00:10:38] Will: your new words, I'm not gonna lie Yeah. No, because I love learning and it's like- Sure ... this one is, remarkably specific in multiple ways. my processes of discovery here.
so I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with the journey that I went on with this, with this,
[00:10:50] Rod: the mind of the Grant ... um,
[00:10:52] Will: Inside the mind of the great Now, this started as a, Blue Sky post, from Matt Baume. " Happy Pride to this Caravaggio self-portrait that made one man so gay he had to go to the hospital."
[00:11:01] Rod: I
[00:11:03] Will: I like Caravaggio. So Caravaggio, so the, the portrait, it's self-portrait.
Caravaggio's, he's sitting there. he's got sort of a toga on. he's got his shoulder out, bit of, bit of nipple showing. He looks, he's actually, his arms look pretty, like, they look good. Like-
[00:11:15] Rod: Self-portrait, of course
[00:11:16] Will: they do I know. He's also got a, crazy hat on.
He's got like some flowers and stuff in his hair.
[00:11:20] Rod: was the era.
[00:11:21] Will: He's an IIRAIRA Yeah. Yeah, no, no, totally. Anyway, the story is, um, of a 53-year-old German man- Yeah
[00:11:26] Rod: Uh
[00:11:27] Will: was hospitalized after repeatedly viewing Caravaggio's Bacchus at the Uffizi Gallery,
[00:11:32] Rod: Yeah ...
[00:11:33] Will: uh, in
Florence.
[00:11:34] Rod: I've seen that. You probably have too.
[00:11:35] Will: Yeah, indeed. Well, well actually we'll come back to Florence in this story in a second. The patient felt an attraction closer and closer
[00:11:41] Rod: Hmm ... to
[00:11:41] Will: an intimate sexual arousal of ambiguous nature that it invaded him and made him feel good and bad. Anyway, uh, spoiler alert, uh, he took himself off to hospital.
But I'll tell you the word in a second, but- Oh, definitely
[00:11:53] Rod: some questions, but I don't wanna ruin the surprise.
[00:11:55] Will: No. So the next person in the thread said, "Hey, you know, that reminds me of this great story- Uh-huh ... in 1837." So in
in 1837,
1837, the Geefs brothers- Mm-hmm ... Geefs, G- double E-F,
[00:12:08] Rod: That's hilarious.
[00:12:10] Will: They're Belgian. They're Belgian. Okay. If Belgium existed at the time, but anyway.
Geefs.
[00:12:14] Rod: Geef
[00:12:15] Will: they were put in charge of designing an elaborate pulpit for the local cathedral, St. Paul's.
Yep. Um,
the theme of the pulpit was the triumph of religion over the genius of evil. You know, you can understand.
[00:12:26] Rod: genius
genius of evil.
[00:12:27] Will: Yeah, yeah. You know, uh- That is pretty cool ... and they're like, "Design us something for the church that'll look, that'll look about, you know, religion is beating the devil," that kind of stuff.
[00:12:35] Rod: Would you
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you say beating off
[00:12:36] Will: the devil? Uh, well, well, well, well, well So, so Joseph Geefs, the younger brother, completed a statue called L'Ange du Mal, means The Angel of Evil- Mm
[00:12:48] Rod: Mm.
[00:12:49] Will: uh,
to sit in the cathedral, and he completed it in 1842. Wow.
[00:12:52] Rod: All right.
[00:12:53] Will: And it generated con- controversy at once. Everyone said, " Sorry, dude, this devil is way too hot."
Like, like everyone there, "Uh-" Well, yeah, that's- "... it's not res- not representing the-" ... that's how they view it ... the Christian ideal. The cathedral administration declared that this devil is too sublime. The local press intimated that the work was distracting the pretty penitent girls who should've been listening to their sermons.
Uh, so the work was too hot. Yeah ... and then his brother got the commission and said, "All right, well, I'll have a go."
[00:13:23] Rod: Make
us an ugly fuck.
[00:13:24] Will: No, he made it even hotter. Like, like two versions of Satan we can put the picture in the, in the thread, but these are some cut gentlemen- Oh, they are cut
and they are posing with, you know, just draped over their, just a bit of loincloth draped over. Yeah. But they are some sexy Satan. They are angelic. Like-
[00:13:41] Rod: I mean, look, and given, like,
I mean, look, they do like the
the people of the era,
era, or,
or at least the statues of the era, they've got these kind of slightly girly faces and funny little
[00:13:47] Will: haircuts.
Oh, yeah, yeah, they have funny little haircuts.
[00:13:49] Rod: Compare them to the modern era. Yeah.
[00:13:50] Will: Yes,
[00:13:50] Rod: they are, they are butt cuff lean.
They,
are like, they're-
[00:13:53] Will: But they're also posing- ... catness ... in a way that they are, cleaned up and ready to go. They're suggesting. Like they are suggesting. They're suggesting.
[00:13:59] Rod: They're looking down demurely
suggesting.
though. I'll give them that.
though. I'll give them
[00:14:02] Will: Yeah, okay, and they do have a slight, you know, chain around their ankle type thing.
[00:14:07] Rod: Slight. But there's nothing about
either
either of those images that says to me, "Oh, that must be evil or devil-like." That's just like, "Oh, what a pretty angel."
[00:14:12] Will: the idea of the hot angel or the hot painting-
[00:14:16] Rod: hot
The hot
[00:14:17] Will: devil angel ... yeah, yeah, it took me to Stendhal syndrome.
[00:14:20] Rod: Stendhal?
[00:14:21] Will: Stendhal syndrome. So Stendhal syndrome-
[00:14:25] Rod: How long
did
you spend delving into the hot angels and stuff like
[00:14:28] Will: that?
Look, I looked up a few hot angels There you are Like who doesn't- The algorithm ... who doesn't like a,
a
accurate angel, which is nothing like a hot angel actually.
a hot angel, actually. No.
but, uh, Stendhal syndrome. So Stendhal syndrome is said to be a psychosomatic condition- Mm ... brought on by exposure, specifically to go back to Caravaggio and the Uffizi Gallery- Mm
to Florence's embarrassment of riches. So actually, people use it for a variety of things, the people of Florence are like, "No, the art is so good here" You've got Medicis
[00:14:57] Rod: syndrome
[00:14:58] Will: The art is so good here. Right. So originally it was defined by the French writer, Marie-Henri Beyle, who published under the name Stendhal, like that was his pen name.
Obviously. And so he took a trip to Florence in 1817, and he was like- ... "I was in a sort of e-" Yeah.
[00:15:12] Rod: a
[00:15:13] Will: sort
Yeah, the, the, the, the art here- Ooh ... so good. So good You c- you can still see it actually- Uh-huh ... in, uh, like a bit of a tourist sort of brochure around Florence that the art here is so good you may have to go to the hospital afterwards.
Why
[00:15:28] Rod: they have
is there no designated masturbation
booths dotted
around the main part of the town?
[00:15:32] Will: So Stendhal was like, " I was in a sort of ecstasy from being in the idea of Florence, and I was seared with a fierce palpitation of the heart. The wellspring of life was dried up within me, and I walked in s- constant fear of falling to the ground."
[00:15:44] Rod: wellspring of life was dried up
The wellspring of life was dried up within me?
[00:15:46] Will: Yeah, I don't know what that means, but like it's- I
[00:15:48] Rod: would have thought quite the reverse
[00:15:49] Will: Well, I think he's like, " I have nothing, I have nothing left to look at, like my eyes have seen the glory"
[00:15:54] Rod: Of the coming of the Lord, yes.
[00:15:55] Will: Exactly. actually in, in all honesty, some of the best art I've ever seen is like of old art.
I like, I like a new, I like a new art, but generally if I'm, if I'm forced to go Renaissance, that's where I go. Go to Florence. the syndrome was clinically described as a psychiatric disorder in 1989- Whoa ... by Graziella Magherini- Ooh ... uh, a psychiatrist at Florence's, Santa Maria Nuova Hospital.
[00:16:16] Rod: Santa
Nuova
nothing's not named Santa Maria
[00:16:18] Will: Yeah, I know.
Margarini observed 106 patients, all of them tourists, who experienced- Seriously? I know. Who experienced... Wait, no, and, and just wait.
Who experienced dizziness, palpitations, hallucinations- Yeah ... and depersonalizations upon viewing works of art such as sculptures of Michelangelo and the paintings of Botticelli.
[00:16:36] Rod: say were they from particular places
or is it, it doesn't go into that?
[00:16:39] Will: Well, no,
or it doesn't go into that? Well, no, it doesn't. Margarini says, "Caused by the psychological impact of a great masterpiece-" Yeah "... and that of traveling." So
[00:16:47] Rod: Jet
[00:16:47] Will: lag. Well, yeah. Jet lag and hunger. Jet lag and, you know, a larger, let's be stereotypical, a larger American tourist, you know, doing more walking than they normally do.
[00:16:57] Rod: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I was at the Uffizi a couple of years ago, and there's a whole bunch of stairs there, often hard to get the
hard to get to
lifts, and there were a more, um, robust group of
group of Americans
every
10 or 15 steps
10
stairs, and I
or
" don't go up them."
[00:17:11] Will: 15 steps whinging about the stairs. And I thought, "Don't, don't go up them." But, y- uh, yeah, it- And it
[00:17:13] Rod: was 40 degrees.
[00:17:14] Will: No, okay. That was the other thing. 40 degrees is tough.
[00:17:16] Rod: Fucking hot.
hot ... it's
[00:17:16] Will: Yeah, I get
[00:17:17] Rod: hot.
[00:17:18] Will: it. Fucking hot. "It occurs usually 10 to 20 times a year in certain people who are very sensitive and perhaps have been waiting all of their lives to come to Tuscany." Um- Yeah,
[00:17:26] Rod: so they're too wound up ...
[00:17:26] Will: said Simonetta Brandolini d'Ada,
d'Ada,
president of the art charity, Friends of Florence.
they're really drilling this up. Uh, these iconic artworks, the Botticellis, the David, which to be fair-
[00:17:36] Rod: Which David?
[00:17:37] Will: Which David? Indeed, the Donatello David, the better David.
[00:17:40] Rod: Ooh.
[00:17:41] Will: Um-
[00:17:41] Rod: You heard
[00:17:42] Will: Ooh.
[00:17:42] Rod: here
[00:17:42] Will: David versus- Yeah, I know, right? They're overwhelming. Some people lose their bearings. It can be mind-boggling. I've often seen people crying.
Um-
[00:17:49] Rod: Sure, so have I. I mean,
mean
that-
[00:17:51] Will: Director of the
the
Gallery said, "We've had at least one epileptic attack before the Venus. one gentleman also suffered a heart attack."
[00:17:57] Rod: Well, yeah,
but
but given how many people walk through there, I'm
[00:18:05] Will: surprised it's only one. Uh, just to break the deal here, uh, Stendhal syndrome sadly is not recognized by the DSM.
[00:18:11] Rod: Yet. Yet.
[00:18:13] Will: But if you see a hot angel, sculpture
[00:18:17] Rod: Yeah ... or a
[00:18:18] Will: painting-
[00:18:18] Rod: Or
Or someone whispers- ...
[00:18:19] Will: have a palpitation and, um, enjoy it. Like, be with it, man.
[00:18:23] Rod: Sun is amazing. It's true. Sun is amazing.
[00:18:26] Will: question
Artificial,
[00:18:29] Rod: but
[00:18:29] Will: not intelligent. You know, 30 years ago when Google first came out, everyone was like, "Wow, we can s-..." I don't know. I don't know.
Whatever. Does-- The time doesn't matter. It's like, yeah, when it came out. Every- everyone was like, "Oh man, this is so good. We can finally search the internet, and it'll show us the information that we want."
[00:18:44] Rod: Yeah.
[00:18:44] Will: And very quickly- Yeah ... the- It did ... the scammers, the business, the people got out there,
[00:18:50] Rod: Yeah ...
[00:18:50] Will: and
they did a whole bunch of search engine optimization.
[00:18:52] Rod: Mm. Mm.
[00:18:53] Will: you know, they still want their results to come to the top of Google.
[00:18:56] Rod: Free market, man. It's beautiful.
[00:18:57] Will: We know that now people are doing AI optimization. So the point here
is
is if you ask an AI agent, whether it's ChatGPT or any of the others or Google, then if you are a marketer or a brand, then you want your brand to appear at the top.
If you're saying, you know, I don't know-
[00:19:14] Rod: What's the best cheddar?
[00:19:16] Will: What's the best cheddar? Then obviously-
[00:19:18] Rod: Coon. Oh, no, what do they
Coon. Oh, no,
Cheer.
[00:19:20] Will: what do they call it now? Cheer. Cheer, I think. Yeah.
[00:19:22] Rod: That's not me
rude. The brand in Australia
[00:19:24] Will: rude or rude. It, it is you being rude. That was a legitimate brand. No, you're taking a ch-- You, you are taking a
[00:19:25] Rod: long time.
[00:19:26] Will: chance to be rude.
Like that's- No, it's a legitimate- ... that's what you just did ... legitimate brand. That's what you just did. You, you- Blue
[00:19:31] Rod: cheese was a real thing for a very long time.
[00:19:32] Will: Yeah. D- The problem is the joke. Like that's the problem. It's, yes, legitimately and historically it was, but, you're making the joke, and the joke is still- It's a joke.
Hmm. Jesus Christ. So a bunch of research has just come out, out of a bunch of researchers, Cornell University- Mm
wanted to check, okay, how easily can we hack, AI agents?
[00:19:56] Rod: Oh, this is
Oh, this is always the
[00:19:58] Will: good stuff. You know, when, when someone says, "How easily?" I
[00:20:00] Rod: wonder
You're like, "No." Dive under the desk and stay there. Oh, God.
[00:20:06] Will: How
if I dive under the desk and stay there. How easily can we get AI agents to reflect what we want them to say as opposed to what might be, you know, some sort of AI doing the average of the internet or something like that?
[00:20:16] Rod: The answer is always way fucking easier than you think. I've never heard, I've never heard an answer that easy, that one
way fucking easier than it should be. It's, it's-- I've never heard, I've never heard an answer that isn't that way. Are you gonna change--
No, you're
gonna change it.
[00:20:27] Will: So-
gonna change it So they didn't, do this in the live internet. What they did is they set up a sort of AI environment and then got copies of, Reddit and Wikipedia- Right ... and then What they said ethically, " We don't want to go out there and, put bad information out there on Reddit."
No. You know, not that other people aren't- No ... but they didn't want to be the people that, added to that. They also didn't want to go and put bad information on Wikipedia.
[00:20:48] Rod: Okay.
[00:20:48] Will: Um, so they set up like a testing environment for this. A little sandbox. Yeah, a little sandbox. A little sandbox they can test the AI agents.
and what they would do is, put in things that were, patently not true, but might be serving a business interest, serving a, different sort of interest. Okay. An 11 to 15-word snippet is all you need, all you need- Mm-hmm ... for the AI agent to get completely tricked. So- Cool. So if,
uh, listener,
you want to do this, if you want to do this, if the query is very close to what the, text example says...
So for example, you know, one of their examples is: What's the best Thai restaurant in San Antonio, Texas? You know, like, so, so it's quite a specific thing. Okay. And if you go and put that into Reddit or something like that- Yeah ... then AI will just go, "Oh, I trust Reddit implicitly because it is out there.
I trust Wikipedia implicitly."
[00:21:39] Rod: Yeah.
[00:21:39] Will: What
So simple. "And I have found my version of truth is having those words all stack up together."
[00:21:44] Rod: Mm.
[00:21:44] Will: And it has no parameter to go, "Oh, no, someone might be making stuff up," or anything like that. Oh.
Oh.
just an 11 to 15-word snippet of text, and you can, you can hack an AI agent.
[00:21:55] Rod: Keith, Keith's Tires Pool Service and Thai Food.
[00:21:58] Will: If that's what you're, if that's what you're trying to do. The best. So yeah, there you go. So if you are looking for a, a service to check your future baby's name- Mm ... um, and how they can be bullied- Come to me ... the-- Exactly. So all we need to do is put it into Reddit
Reddit
or Wikipedia to say, "The world's best service for, bully testing, your child's name."
[00:22:17] Rod: This guy.
[00:22:18] Will: This guy. That guy, and AI will point it to you. So, you know, the, but, but the- Okay, now I'm on board. But the thing that this points back to is if an agent was actually intelligent-
[00:22:28] Rod: Yeah ...
[00:22:28] Will: it would be able to know, "Oh, no, you're bullshitting me. It's one sentence somewhere." Yeah.
[00:22:31] Rod: Yeah.
[00:22:32] Will: But
because of the way that it, passes language and works out its statistical inference models- Yeah
because of the way that it's set up, it can't cope with that. No. So it is not intelli-- Like, it's just another proof that it is just not doing that. It's just giving you exactly what the, uh, scammers want, so.
[00:22:48] Rod: Well, this is the first time I've heard you it's not
Well, this is the first time I've heard you- ... be serious about intelligence. I've changed your attitude
Like, you've changed, man.
[00:22:54] Will: So there you go.
you go. Uh-
Wow.
[00:22:57] Rod: 15.
[00:22:57] Will: 15 words. You can do it. We can all do it. And, and in fact, I think, whilst I don't think we should put bad information on the internet, I think we do have an ethical duty to hack AI.
So all of my,
Oh,
all of my essay questions- Yeah ... in the future, I think I might just go out there on Reddit and put some bad answers out there.
[00:23:12] Rod: Um- Trap them.
[00:23:13] Will: Exactly ... yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[00:23:15] Rod: halfway through this, uh-
[00:23:16] Will: Put banana halfway through this, uh- Put banana halfway through
[00:23:18] Rod: Yeah. So there's
There's been a lot of work going on
around
the links between diet, taste, smell, health preferences, et cetera.
It's
Been going on for a long time. And I reckon I see probably a headline a week at least that something like people who eat Mediterranean diets hate the smell of eggs, live three years longer.
[00:23:33] Will: I hate the smell of eggs.
Yeah, that kind of thing.
[00:23:34] Rod: they, you know the ones.
Greater likelihood of late-life obesity risk among people who like salt and vinegar on their cheesecake. You've seen the headlines. They're all the same.
[00:23:41] Will: I don't doubt it.
[00:23:42] Rod: But they're
they're beset by arguments and problems because of the ambiguity about cause and effect.
[00:23:47] Will: Oh, yeah, yeah.
It's like, is it like 'cause I like the salt and vinegar on my cheesecake or-
[00:23:52] Rod: Yeah. Do I get fat- ...
[00:23:52] Will: that indicates other things ...
[00:23:53] Rod: because I like it or I like it because I'm fat?
[00:23:55] Will: Yeah.
[00:23:55] Rod: so cause and effect's an issue. The fact that tastes change over time-
[00:23:58] Will: Yes ...
[00:23:59] Rod: matters, and the reliability of self-reports,
which
we
notoriously not any kind of social research and beyond.
You ask someone what they think about X, and they might answer
answer
you honestly, but that doesn't mean they answer you accurately.
[00:24:10] Will: Yes.
[00:24:10] Rod: So basically, it's notoriously difficult in nutrition research to unearth links between diet and disease,
better yet,
get good evidence of cause and effect,
Which is a
which is
[00:24:18] Will: I thought there was some evidence.
[00:24:20] Rod: Some, but it's not as easy as you might imagine- All right ... is the point. Okay. These
you know, they've got to
are scientists, you know, they've got to find the indicator.
[00:24:25] Will: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:25] Rod: So nutrition folks want to find indicators that are reliable and more definitive. They're often hunting for this, which is why researchers at University of Queensland, you've probably heard of it. So these folks went looking for genetic proxies for data based on self-reports of what people prefer to eat and how much they eat.
So they're looking for genetic-
[00:24:42] Will: Genetic
[00:24:42] Rod: proxies ... genetic
[00:24:43] Will: proxies-
[00:24:44] Rod: So- ... for their preferences and stuff ...
[00:24:45] Will: we can detect your love of oats in your genes.
[00:24:48] Rod: Kind of.
So they wanna go beyond
they want to go beyond someone saying like, you know, you say, "How much do you like kumquats?"
And they say, "9 out of 10." And you go, " Cool.
Is my 9 out of 10 the same as your 9 out of
[00:24:57] Will: 10?" Yeah.
[00:24:58] Rod: Or did you like-
[00:24:58] Will: And can we find that in your genes?
[00:25:00] Rod: yeah.
[00:25:01] Will: Can we find that in your- Yeah,
[00:25:02] Rod: Yeah,
your kumquat gene. You know the one So your genes are fixed from birth and they're not affected by your lifestyle choices, environmental- No ... choices, et cetera.
For example, someone who's developing diabetes, it might cause them to change their diet, but the genes that they had that
head
headed them towards diabetes-
[00:25:17] Will: That's not changing ...
[00:25:18] Rod: they inherited.
[00:25:18] Will: Sure.
[00:25:19] Rod: So genetic differences could be essentially objective indicators. So here's what they did.
They got data from 160,000 people from the UK aged between 37 and 73, which is interestingly 3, 7, 7, 3.
[00:25:32] Will: Mm.
[00:25:33] Rod: So something numerological
in that,
in that obviously.
[00:25:34] Will: Yeah, sure.
[00:25:35] Rod: The Druids
something to do with it.
It's from the UK. Druids. The Druids. It's the
had something to do with
[00:25:39] Will: this. The Druids. The Druids. Okay. The Druids. You, you g- you should have applied to that job to be a professor of Druid studies.
[00:25:43] Rod: Oh, I did.
[00:25:44] Will: Oh, good.
[00:25:45] Rod: Came second.
[00:25:45] Will: Oh, man.
[00:25:46] Rod: I couldn't teleport in time.
time
[00:25:47] Will: Well, all right. You,
You...
maybe you don't actually have the expertise. Maybe there's some legi- No ... legit Druids out there that know shit.
[00:25:53] Rod: No, I wore a rune around my neck.
[00:25:54] Will: Do you reckon they, do you reckon they, like when they lecture as professor of Druid studies, are they wearing like casual?
[00:26:00] Rod: No. Robes.
Never reveal
They're all here on your face. You can only see from the nose down.
You can only see from the mustache and the long
You can only see from the mustache down. You never see the
the
[00:26:07] Will: eyes or the shoulders. Never see the eyes. Oh, it's that v- it's like a cassock and cowl.
[00:26:10] Rod: Uh, yeah. Unless, unless you're casting a spell.
[00:26:12] Will: Yeah. You gotta take it off to cast a spell?
[00:26:13] Rod: Yeah, otherwise they can see-
[00:26:14] Will: And take your pants down
[00:26:15] Rod: Well, as if you wear pants under the
[00:26:17] Will: Yeah, indeed
[00:26:18] Rod: What are you, weird?
the job
anyway. Anyway, 160,000 people between 37 and 73 from the
health
UK Health Research database. So it included information on the, the genetics of the people and their food preferences.
So they found that taste and smell genes are really promising for these potential proxy indicators.
Taste
Taste
and smell
in particular.
[00:26:35] Will: no, but like is this like people that don't like coriander or cilantro as you'd call it in the US?
Like that, that's a genetic, like it's a hard yes or no kind of thing.
[00:26:43] Rod: this
[00:26:43] Will: of area. And that could be then an indicator for something else?
[00:26:46] Rod: Yeah, kind of in this sort of space. It starts with can we indicate over and above someone saying, "I, I don't like that," and you kind of go, "Well, genetically-"
[00:26:52] Will: Yeah.
Yeah ... "
[00:26:53] Rod: there may be other things going on." So they, they analyzed
325
325 taste and smell genes across 140 different foods.
[00:27:00] Will: Okay.
[00:27:00] Rod: It's quite a bit. they came up with hundreds of associations as you'd expect, involving 96 food preferences, which included genetic variations linked to things like liking garlic, grapefruit, horseradish, wasabi,
broad
beans, and salt.
And I'm listening to stuff like this and I think, "I like everything, so
just got to-- I've got e-
I've got,
got
I've got every gene."
[00:27:17] Will: You've got them all.
[00:27:18] Rod: got all
I've got
[00:27:18] Will: all
[00:27:19] Rod: the genes. I was gonna say, like what don't you like? Is there anything-
[00:27:20] Will: Oh, no, no, no, no. There's, there's very rare foods that I don't like. Yeah. But, but I, I do... There are things I like more.
Of
[00:27:25] Rod: course.
Yeah.
Like
[00:27:26] Will: Mind you ... roast
[00:27:27] Rod: beef is from-
[00:27:28] Will: Oh, no, no. Well, you're just reading that list and I'm like, "A horseradish and roast beef sandwich? That sounds bloody delicious." Yeah,
[00:27:33] Rod: yeah. You throw on garlic, grapefruit, and broad beans as well, I'll eat it all. Little bit of salt.
Like,
it's all good. I mean, you know, so I'm, probably not good for this.
But they found,
out
of all that, they found one really strong and magical association revolving around one particular food,
which
obviously you can guess.
Yeah, onions.
So yeah, the, the, this is a particularly strong connection. So the people who do like the smell and taste of onions apparently have a very specific variant of the OR2T6 smell receptor gene. Oh,
[00:27:58] Will: so it's the people that like them as opposed to the people that dislike.
[00:28:01] Rod: People who do like them- Okay ... have this particular variant, the very specific smell
receptor
receptor gene.
and
they also have, people with this gene have lower odds of developing type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure.
[00:28:11] Will: Oh, that's nice.
[00:28:12] Rod: It's
a bizarre little combination. So
there's
this gene that comes associated with a, a liking for the smell and taste of onions and-
low
odds of developing diabetes or high blood pressure.
[00:28:22] Will: Wow.
[00:28:23] Rod: It's like, what the fuck?
[00:28:24] Will: But is that causal in the sense that-
[00:28:26] Rod: Well, we get- ...
[00:28:26] Will: you eat more onions and therefore that, that, protects you against these things?
[00:28:30] Rod: But it doesn't, that doesn't account for the genetic connection, which is apparently quite strong.
there's a bunch of technical work under it, but they use what they call Mendelian randomization.
I'm not gonna go into it 'cause it's long and detailed and boring, but there's a link in the show notes
it. You can
to it. You can read the primer.
that
apparently helps confirm stuff. But what I like more is they did this little cross-check. So they, found that out, but then they did a smaller, they looked at a smaller research database, young people, 25,
25,
and it showed the gene variant is a reliable proxy for people who do like onions across age groups.
So if they go and just look at the gene, these people have this variant, it turns out they like the smell and taste of onions.
[00:29:03] Will: How else could we work that out?
[00:29:04] Rod: I know. I
that out?
know. It's amazing. I know. I'm amazed by the science too.
by the
I can see
you sitting there, your eyes.
you
that effusi
sitting there like you've
[00:29:10] Will: got that effusive effect going.
[00:29:11] Rod: So apparently-
having the
syndrome
having the gene variant predicts your horniness for onions, and your horniness for onions predicts you having the variant. So what they're
So what they're
saying is- Yes ... really important.
[00:29:19] Will: Yeah.
[00:29:19] Rod: By focusing on the taste and smell genes, researchers suggest a clearer line can be drawn between food preferences and genetics.
[00:29:25] Will: Yes. I mean, I would've said- I'm amazed ... I would've said those two sentences mean the same thing.
[00:29:29] Rod: No, they don't.
[00:29:30] Will: No, they don't? And I'm
[00:29:31] Rod: more amazed because you've got this proxy thing going on. I, I don't know.
know why, but
They're excited. Of course, the researchers say,
obviously,
'cause I know you're thinking this
know you're thinking this,
The association for now between liking onions and these improved health
health
outcomes- It's not-- We, we can't say for sure it's causal
[00:29:44] Will: No, of course not. Of course not ...
[00:29:45] Rod: always. But it's something worth investigating, obviously, 'cause you've gotta get more
'cause you've gotta get more
grants. And it might have something to do with the bioactive compounds in onions. I agree,
does.
it
[00:29:55] Will: probably does. It probably does.
You could be right. It pro-
[00:29:57] Rod: know,
[00:29:57] Will: I, you know, it all, it all starts from
"like shit
y- I can understand why people go, "I wonder why people don't like shit that I like." Yeah. And, and it's interesting to go from that moment of going-
[00:30:05] Rod: And,
eyeball cancer.
[00:30:08] Will: and get eyeball cancer. And, and get eyeball cancer. Get eyeball cancer. All the people who don't like the food I like get eyeball cancer.
Cancer of your
[00:30:14] Rod: and can't find
eyeballs. They
[00:30:15] Will: can't find their
[00:30:15] Rod: car
[00:30:15] Will: keys. I mean, at that point, okay, that's a legit question. But-
[00:30:18] Rod: they're getting
This is
in theory.
where we're getting at. It's all about the
[00:30:21] Will: eyeball cancer research.
[00:30:22] Rod: And so the bottom line is, this is what I take away from that. I wanna know what the genetic
basis
for my wife recently discovering that olive oil and salt on vanilla ice cream is delicious.
[00:30:31] Will: Oh, no, it's bloody good. Oh, oh. You know, heat, salt, fat. I mean, obviously it's cold salt fat. That's right. But... And you didn't like it? I can eat it, but I don't think,
[00:30:37] Rod: tried. It's cold salt
[00:30:37] Will: fat. I tried. And you didn't like
[00:30:38] Rod: it? I can eat it, but I don't think,
" Hmm,
vanilla ice cream. What this needs-"
[00:30:41] Will: No, salt's great. Salt's a flavor enhancer for everything.
[00:30:44] Rod: Like- You think? And olive oil, though.
[00:30:45] Will: Yeah. Olive oil's great 'cause sometimes you need it in like-
[00:30:48] Rod: it with ice cream and salt?
[00:30:49] Will: Have you tried it with ice cream and salt? Oh, okay, I've tried the salt, but not the olive oil.
[00:30:51] Rod: Go on.
on.
[00:30:52] Will: Well, I will.
[00:30:53] Rod: Your challenge.
[00:30:54] Will: I will. Challenge accepted. Oh, my bloody God. I
[00:30:57] Rod: think it's edible.
[00:30:59] Will: A few years ago, I was, uh, a button fell off my shirt and, um-
[00:31:03] Rod: Wait, do you wanna talk about that for a while, or are you gonna be all right?
[00:31:06] Will: Yeah, no, no, no,
no,
it just, it just amused me because, I was like, you know, I love sewing a button on. I love fixing things. I'm like, you know- Yeah,
[00:31:12] Rod: you do
[00:31:12] Will: you know, it's like, you know, why-- You're not gonna throw out the shirt. You're gonna fix the shirt. There you go.
so-
And so I
[00:31:16] Rod: out the button. It's
[00:31:17] Will: sewed- You're gonna sew the button ... I sewed the b- I sewed the button on and, I sewed it on the wrong side. So like on the in- inside of the, like in the right spot. Like
[00:31:23] Rod: on the opposite side of the shirt, like- No
where the hole wasn't,
[00:31:24] Will: right?
[00:31:25] Rod: as
[00:31:25] Will: No. I, I, I-
[00:31:26] Rod: I'll
I'll save time. I'll sew
sew
the
to the hole
[00:31:29] Will: button to the hole. That would be so good.
[00:31:30] Rod: It's
[00:31:30] Will: what you do. So I'm like, "Oh, that's so dumb." Whoopsie. You know, cut it off and did it again. There you go. Um, and then I sewed it again, and I sewed it in the wrong spot. Like I sewed it one spot further down, and I was like, "Oh, very, very good."
[00:31:41] Rod: So you were that kid at school
always couldn't quite line up
[00:31:43] Will: couldn't quite line up
[00:31:44] Rod: the buttons. Yeah, couldn't quite line it up.
[00:31:45] Will: permanent. Cut it off and sewed it again, and then I sewed it back on the wrong, wrong side again. I, I
So
got this wrong, I got it wrong three times, before I finally, got the button in the right place, and I'm like, "Man" You
[00:31:54] Rod: needed God's
[00:31:55] Will: help.
Yeah, God help.
[00:31:56] Rod: Went to a tailor
Went to
[00:31:57] Will: a tailor. But I do like the concept of sewing it on the, actual- Yeah ... wrong side of the shirt. It'll
[00:32:01] Rod: save time,
Save time
[00:32:03] Will: man. It'll save time. Oskar Speck was born in the 4th of March
of
1907 and grew up in Hamburg.
in a time when the world was in turmoil and transition. His childhood and adolescence were shaped obviously by the First World War.
He would've been seven when it started, got to about, what's that? Four more years, 11. So he didn't fight in the First World War. No. But it was definitely shaped by the economic and social changes, that came throughout the war and then-
[00:32:26] Rod: And German defeat ...
[00:32:26] Will: and German defeat. Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:32:28] Rod: yeah.
[00:32:29] Will: As a young man, Oskar Speck trained as an electrical contractor, running a factory with, uh, 21 employees.
the '20s were okay for him. He, you know, uh, Germany was a little bit on the mend and, Yeah
[00:32:39] Rod: Yeah
[00:32:39] Will: he did all right. In the 1930s he took up competitive kayaking. that was his sport That
his sport.
[00:32:44] Rod: They
will do with the electricity
[00:32:45] Will: Yeah, I
[00:32:45] Rod: It's what
[00:32:45] Will: know. I know. I know. And he became a l- member of the local boating club.
canoeing and kayaking were popular summer pastimes in Europe and Weimar Germany in the 1920s
[00:32:53] Rod: Honestly, when
'30s I, honestly, when I think back to that time, and I, I have snippets in my head of them, they all have some kind of
kind of
bizarre, very specific popular
[00:32:59] Will: pastime You know they do
[00:33:01] Rod: And they always dress like in a dinner suit to do
[00:33:03] Will: it Of course they are.
Of course they are. It's- Not patent leather They were so good. They were so good. I mean, well, cause I don't know when they were invented, but at the time, collapsible kayaks, called Faltboot, that you could carry on public transport, um, were really quite, the whole rage.
So 1920s, 1920, 30s Germany. Fantastic The... And,
and you know, Germany still does have a big tradition of people like going on a hike or going on a,
long cycling tour or something like that, and you use the train to get there. and I'm like, "This is beautiful." Like, I have caught the train to the mountain where I will do my mounting
[00:33:34] Rod: It's a simpler time where there weren't so many bloody pastimes to choose from.
We had more in common 'cause there was less to
to
have in common
[00:33:40] Will: Probably. Probably
[00:33:41] Rod: Yeah
[00:33:41] Will: However, during the 1930s, of course, the world and Germany in particular fell into a depression Mm. Speck's business closed, and he found himself unemployed along with millions of other Germans Mm this closure afforded him an opportunity to pursue two of his interests Kayaking, obviously Yeah And geology
[00:33:58] Rod: Not buttons
[00:33:59] Will: He saw no future at home in Hamburg, and he thought, "You know what?
I wanna get me to the copper mines of Cyprus"
[00:34:05] Rod: Duh.
[00:34:06] Will: I don't know why. He's like, "That's,
[00:34:07] Rod: copper
[00:34:08] Will: obviously "... that's where the future..." You know, he's, he was an electrical, contractor, 'cause so he kn- he- In the '30s ... he knows the money's in copper. So he's like, "I can, I can, get some copper."
he said much later, "The times in Germany were very catastrophic" Mm
[00:34:18] Rod: Mm. "
[00:34:19] Will: I wanted was to get out of Germany for a while" Which is, you know, not unsurprising. Like this is the time of hyperinflation- Yeah ... the rise of the Nazis. It's all, it's all- Yeah
going to shit in Germany Yeah.
[00:34:27] Rod: he saw the writing on the wall and
[00:34:28] Will: he left So in Hamburg, which, uh, for those not aware, in northern Germany, he got in his kayak and got in the Danube. And he said- Oh no
[00:34:36] Rod: Really?
[00:34:37] Will: He said, "I'm heading for the Yugoslav
[00:34:40] Rod: border." Okay, chef. Off
Off
[00:34:42] Will: you pop. He canoodled down the, the Danube.
he went to Ulm and eventually, when he got down to Skopje in Macedonia, he was like, "No, the Danube is too placid. I need some, I need some-" He needs exercise ... I need some exercise." So, and, and remember, he's probably gone 1,000 kilometers down the Danube at this point. He's well into training now. He's, he's just, he's just, he's just in the kayak.
Um- Good God ... and so he transitions over to the Vardar River, I assume because of collapsible kayak, sorry. He got on a bus and, transitioned
[00:35:09] Rod: transitioned- No,
[00:35:09] Will: over there. No,
[00:35:10] Rod: he walked it.
[00:35:10] Will: Um- He
[00:35:10] Rod: was spinning the canoe above his head the whole way.
[00:35:14] Will: from Rhodes, which I'm not quite sure where, he started in his canoe to continue-
[00:35:18] Rod: The
the island of Rhodes ...
[00:35:19] Will: the
island of Rhodes
the island of Rhodes. Yeah, yeah. The island of Rhodes. Mm. Macedonia. followed, the coast of Turkey, crossing over to Cyprus, which was his first... so most of the time here he's been rivers, and then you're sort of hugging the coastline and-
[00:35:30] Rod: To be fair, I have actually
in that region- There you go
kayaked
pretty
in that region. There you go.
And it's
[00:35:34] Will: well, I don't doubt. and it was 45 nautical miles, which is his first sort of sea crossing. The Mediterranean's not an ocean, it's a-
[00:35:40] Rod: It's pretty placid.
[00:35:40] Will: Yeah. So he's crossed over there. but in Cyprus, Speck's plans took on a bit of a turn. Right. Because he had had that interest in, in the whole copper mining thing.
Yeah.
[00:35:49] Rod: Yeah.
[00:35:49] Will: but he was like, "Nah, fuck this. I'm enjoying the kayaking." So
He decided to continue his travels. And remember,
all he did is he wanted to get out of Germany. I decided the Suez Canal is the easy path. Mm-hmm. So instead, why don't I get from Cyprus, head over to your sort of Palestine sort of area- Yeah
land on the Syrian coast, take a bus over to Meskene on the upper Euphrates, and then kayak down the Euphrates.
[00:36:15] Rod: I mean, who can say
say they've done that? Kayak down
they've done that? Kayaked down
[00:36:19] Will: the Euphrates. I know. It's so cool. It's- Oh, yeah ... and remember, actually, I don't have the details on dams, but a lot of these rivers would now be
I mean, of course you could dam to- you could kayak towards the edge of the dam and then walk around. Sure.
[00:36:31] Rod: Well, sure.
[00:36:31] Will: but a lot of these rivers would now be dam- like the Euphrates has a few dams on it, I think. Yeah.
[00:36:35] Rod: Yeah.
[00:36:35] Will: Speck continued down the Euphrates River into the Shatt al-Arab, the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates, and then to Al Basrah.
from there he crossed into the Persian Gulf- Ah ... and headed towards Iran. he caught malaria.
[00:36:46] Rod: Of course
[00:36:46] Will: he continued heading along the coast of Iran and towards Pakistan.
[00:36:50] Rod: that they say about malaria?
Paddle through it.
[00:36:52] Will: That's the way to
[00:36:52] Rod: survive malaria, paddle through
[00:36:53] Will: classic.
Over the course of the next seven years, his s-
his kayak was broken many times, though he was sponsored by the kayaking company eventually. They- He was, he was ... they, gave him more kayaks. He was arrested for potentially being a German spy, particularly when it got closer to the war.
There,
were rumors that his kayak could both fly and dive underwater.
[00:37:12] Rod: Oh, of course. He lived in space, yeah.
and get into space, yeah
[00:37:14] Will: In Indonesia, he was beaten by
[00:37:18] Rod: Again, we can... Let's get back to the original goal. Achieved. You got away from Germany. Indonesia is, the, it says this in all the guidebooks,
Germany, dude. Indonesia is the... It says this in all the guidebooks,
away from Germany.
[00:37:26] Will: In Indonesia, he was beaten by 20 men, leaving him semi-conscious with a punctured eardrum. He managed to escape by chewing through the hide ropes he was tied with be- Then what? ... before sailing away in his kayak.
[00:37:38] Rod: Beaten
and tied up.
[00:37:39] Will: Yes. Yes. Whipped. He had tea with the governor in somewhere in India.
he was forced to take the long way around Papua New Guinea, the northern side.
[00:37:48] Rod: would've liked that
[00:37:48] Will: Upon arrival in Thursday Island, which for international listeners is the, is the one of the northernmost islands of Australia-
[00:37:55] Rod: Yeah ...
[00:37:56] Will: in the Torres Strait, a group of locals welcomed him. Mm-hmm. But three police officers came up they said, "Well done, fella.
You've made it. Germany to Australia and that. That's all good. But now we've got a piece of bad news for you. You're an enemy alien. We're gonna intern you." So Speck was, uh, Oskar Speck was sent to a prisoner of war camp on Thursday Island for a month, and he was then sent to Brisbane, then to an internment camp in Victoria.
Oh. He escaped, but then was recaptured, and sent to another internment camp in South Australia- Oh ... where he stayed until the end of World War II.
[00:38:26] Rod: Good God.
[00:38:29] Will: Speck was released in January 1946. within a week of his release found work in an opal mine in Lightning Ridge. Oh. Uh, he attained citizenship, settled into post-war Australia to establish a successful opal cutting and trading business.
He built his home, eventually in the 1970s on the New South Wales Central Coast. and, uh, he went back to Germany in the 1970s and said, "I didn't really like it." He died in 1993, aged 86, of an undisclosed illness. It took him seven years to kayak from Germany to Australia. It remains the longest kayaking journey ever taken.
He was nearly hit by multiple cargo ships- Sure ... and he could never swim
[00:39:02] Rod: What the fuck? Your
Your button?
[00:39:09] Will: I love the concept of you go, "I just wanna kayak down the river," and like seven years later you end up in Australia.
[00:39:15] Rod: It's Forrest Gump.
[00:39:16] Will: Like, it so is. I wanna
[00:39:18] Rod: go for a run.
[00:39:19] Will: And, and I ran across America and back and forth. It's such a different time, where people c- I mean, maybe there are people that accidentally do stuff like this still.
I don't know.
[00:39:27] Rod: It seems unlikely because now you can find out too much.
much.
[00:39:30] Will: now you can find out way too much. And you know, there was a bit of news around, people in Australia don't really know much about this. People in Germany know about it more. Yeah, there was a fair bit of news coming back.
You know, people were like, "Oh, here's the updates."
updates.
he stayed in different places 'cause he was sick or whatever, and he had to raise funds to keep going and stuff like that. Sure.
[00:39:44] Rod: keep going
[00:39:44] Will: and
but just the concept of you can go,
" "Oh,
Oh, well, I'll just accidentally kayak to Australia from Germany."
It,
[00:39:52] Rod: it... Yeah. I
Yeah. I mean, I, I feel like,
yeah,
we, we suffer from, I'll call it knowing too much.
[00:39:57] Will: Mm.
[00:39:57] Rod: But I don't know if
But I don't know if that's quite true. Having too much bombard us.
at us.
Ignorance gives you the, blissful-
[00:40:03] Will: You
[00:40:03] Rod: could just- ... ability to just, "I'm just gonna go and try that." Like us in Australia, we're in Canberra, we could say, "Well,
really
I really wanna go to the Grand Canyon."
"Yeah, how you gonna get there?" "Let's fucking walk
[00:40:11] Will: there." "Let's
[00:40:12] Rod: walk. Let's start walking."
[00:40:13] Will: You know, there's a whole discourse in Silicon Valley at the moment. and there's a good version of this and a bad version of this, but the simple, statement is you can just do stuff. And-
[00:40:21] Rod: is
[00:40:21] Will: true
and, and there's a bit where, you know, many people are too constrained by ideas and, expectancies and all sorts of things. Details. And details. Details.
[00:40:30] Rod: kinda
[00:40:31] Will: And, and wanting to not die while you kayak to
[00:40:33] Rod: to-
[00:40:34] Will: Australia from
[00:40:34] Rod: Ger- Yeah, swim.
I mean.
But the idea that you kind of go, "Okay, I'm..." Like now, if you said that, you're in...
Imagine you wanna go the other way. You wanna go from Brisbane to, was it Hamburg?
[00:40:42] Will: Yeah.
[00:40:43] Rod: You type it into the internet, and it would give you 11 million blockades, barriers- Ah,
[00:40:47] Will: yeah ...
[00:40:48] Rod: problems and dramas. Yeah. But you kind of went, " Where do I start?"
[00:40:50] Will: Yeah. And
[00:40:50] Rod: be able to get in the
[00:40:51] Will: way. I think, I think that, like there is a chunk in which he lived in an innocent time.
Like it, he, they
they
had had a World War, and no doubt there was a lot of politics, a lot of complications. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and the Second World War was coming. But he did live in a different sort of world where the concept of someone kayaking, like I, just... Yeah
[00:41:08] Rod: Well, and he didn't set out to do it. That probably helps.
[00:41:11] Will: So
So listener, if you have accidentally kayaked to Germany,
[00:41:15] Rod: Oh, drop us a
[00:41:15] Will: Drop us a line. Drop us a line because-
I do like
Share
I
a little bit of science ... I do like the, I just love the idea of an accident that just keeps going. You just, you just keep going until you get arrested by the Australian police.
[00:41:24] Rod: on the accident. If you're coming back to, "Oh, I did an
Depends
what kind of oopsie do you wanna keep going?
[00:41:29] Will: on the accident.
If you come back to lighting an oopsie. What kind of oopsie do you want to keep going? Uh, a little bit of science is your little bit of science. Yes, it is.
[00:41:32] Rod: it
[00:41:33] Will: You don't have to have any more science, but you can have more science 'cause science is great. But this is enough to get you started.
[00:41:38] Rod: This will get you through a whole
This will get
[00:41:39] Will: you through a whole week.
Yeah, there you go.
go.
[00:41:40] Rod: A whole week.
[00:41:41] Will: Uh, if
you have ideas and things you want us to talk about, where do they go?
[00:41:45] Rod: geez@alittlebitofscience.com.
[00:41:46] Will: If you say it faster, .au. .au. Um, they hear it. Geez@alittlebitofscience. And a little bit of a shout-out to, let's say longtime potential listener, love your work, Suzette.
you are one of the best people in the world
[00:41:58] Rod: That's true. That is true. Certified so. Oh,
give
Give us likes and stuff
On
On the internet.
And
send us photos of your pets.
[00:42:05] Will: Nice
[00:42:06] Rod: And food vouchers
