When you think of the word ‘cult’, what immediately comes to mind for most of us are things like hooded velvet robes, secretive gatherings and doomsday prophesies. Then there’s the charismatic yet nefarious leader brainwashing followers, maybe a forced orgie or two, a spot of mass suicide—generally not good stuff.
Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton outlines three primary characteristics of destructive cults: a charismatic leader, coercive persuasion tactics, and exploitation of members. Well, that pretty much sums up NXIVM (pronounced "nexium”). Although it purported to offer "Executive Success Programs" for self-improvement, NVIVM was dubbed a "sex cult" once the extent of its crimes became known. NXIVM leader, Keith Raniere, used deputies like Smallville actress Allison Mack, to recruit women to the alleged self-help group. He then told his female disciples that they had been high-ranking Nazis in their former lives and that having yogic sex with him was a way to shift the residual bad energy lurking in their systems. You’ve heard it a thousand times….
Once in the fold, women and children were emotionally and sexually abused, trafficked and referred to as sex slaves. Recruits into NXIVM were also forced to turn over their financial assets and confess their past misdeeds, used as collateral to keep them there. Raniere is currently serving a 120-year sentence for sex trafficking and racketeering charges.
Another group that lives up to the evil and destructive cult definition is the Order of the Solar Temple. Founded by Joseph Di Mambro and Luc Jouret in Geneva in 1984, the Order of the Solar Temple sought to revive the Medieval Knights Templar. Jouret claimed to be both Christ and the reincarnation of one member of the 14th-century order (Jesus with a sword. Epic). According to their prophecy, the end of the world would come in the mid-1990s and Di Mambro's daughter would rescue the group's members by taking them to a planet that revolved around the star Sirius. But to enter a higher spiritual plane, they first had to experience an earthly death.
In October 1994, 53 members of the order committed suicide or were murdered in Canada and Switzerland. Di Mambro and Jouret's remains were found among the bodies and it was later revealed that Di Mambro had also ordered the murder of an infant, whom he believed to be the anti-Christ.
But with so much in your face evil, why do people join cults in the first place?? Some scholars suggest that it's a response to uncertainty, a way to regain control in tumultuous times… might explain why America features high on the list of culty countries.
So it’s pretty well established that there are a lot of bad cults. But are there any good ones?
Osho, AKA the Rajneesh movement, inspired by the Indian mystic Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, didn’t seem so bad. It was all about love, meditation and prayerfulness and people were allowed to come and go as they pleased. Sure, you had to wear orange, but orange is a happy colour.
Dr Elizabeth Puttick, author of Women in New Religions: In Search of Community, Sexuality and Spiritual Power, says some women are actually empowered by cults. Although if Rajneesh’s second in charge, Ma Anand Sheela, was anything to go by, maybe the empowering went too far. In 1985, she pleaded guilty to attempted murder, electronic eavesdropping, immigration fraud, and engineering a salmonella outbreak that made more than 750 people ill.
While there are far too many examples of destructive cults, perhaps you don’t need to have yogic sex (well you can if you want to) or commit mass suicide (please don’t) to be a cult member. We might all be in one without even realising it… a benign cult that is.
Rick Ross, a leading expert on cults, describes benign cults as ‘any group of people that are intensely devoted to a person, place, or thing.’ Sports fans, Apple fanboys, Trekkies, fitness groups, foodies.. whatever you’re into. The difference here is that benign cults are never destructive. They’re inclusive, the leaders are accountable to the group and they help fill the emotional wants and needs of their followers, minus the murder and sex slavery.
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[00:00:00] Rod: So my first full time job straight out of high school, took a gap year. So it was late eighties.
[00:00:06] Will: Fuck. Hang on now I can visualize. you're at work in a roller disco, aren't you? You're coaching John Travolta on the roller derby?
[00:00:12] Rod: I had better abs though. It was amazing. I had nine abs. So I got a job at a restaurant as a trainee assistant manager stream, the fast track.
[00:00:21] Will: They didn't start you on dish pig.
[00:00:22] Rod: Yeah, I had to do that but it was like two weeks on this job, two weeks on that job, two weeks on that job and then boom, you're a shift man.
[00:00:27] Will: Respect man. Respect. You did well.
[00:00:30] Rod: And it was it was part of a chain restaurant, there was only one Canberra one and all the others were in another Australian city.
[00:00:35] Will: Is it a chain that still exists?
[00:00:36] Rod: Not in Canberra. The reason I'm not mentioning its name directly will be probably become apparent in a moment. There was lots of manuals, lots of training hierarchy, stuff like this. The pay was awesome. Like it was fucking spectacular at the time. There were heaps of shifts. It was 24 hours. So there's three shifts per rotation. It was good. Like I was cooking, it was high pressure, but it was kind of interesting.
[00:00:54] It was a good group of people. We're all sort of 15 to 25. Got on really well, about 30 of us, lots of parties. My first Long term live in lady friend, I met her there
[00:01:03] Will: that's a management perk.
[00:01:05] Rod: That was a management perk.
[00:01:06] Will: Casuals don't get no girlfriend.
[00:01:07] Rod: Here's your free lady. That's exactly what they said. So I learned a lot. Like it was really good in a lot of ways. Good and stressful, but kind of interesting. I still have some dreams. I learned some, you know, actual life lessons by doing this job.
[00:01:19] Will: I get it. It's almost like out of high school, people do learn life lessons by going to work.
[00:01:25] Rod: Straighten up, fly right, pull up your bum skins and loosen.
[00:01:28] Will: Push your boots up onto your feet.
[00:01:29] Rod: Yep. Fly right. Guns on the board. I also, at the time, at least the owners and top senior management were all in what many people would consider to be a cult.
[00:01:53] Will: Welcome to the wholesome show
[00:01:55] Rod: the podcast where two academics knock off early, grab a couple of beers and sprint down the rabbit hole
[00:02:01] Will: down the rabbit hole, down the rabbit hole, deep down the rabbit hole. I'm Will Grant.
[00:02:04] Rod: I am Rod Lamberts and I am not currently in a cult. So this episode was inspired by, I was musing, are there any good cults? Cause the cult stories you will hear, yeah..
[00:02:14] Will: Most news is about things going wrong. Building burns down, murder murders a murdery, but they deserved it. Plane crash, but we don't tell stories about plane made flight, everyone had a nice time, watched some cool shows
[00:02:27] Rod: happy holiday makers
[00:02:28] Will: You know, with the news, if it's going to mention a cult is going to be, and a cult went downhill fast and everyone died.
[00:02:36] Rod: Or got sexed.
[00:02:38] Will: Or got sexed in problematic ways.
[00:02:40] Rod: Yes.
[00:02:41] Will: Are there any good cults?
[00:02:42] Rod: So this is what this is inspired by. So what was the cult I was talking about first up? Scientology.
[00:02:48] Will: Ooh, point of contention. We're just going to get sued. Is it?
[00:02:51] Rod: No, that's the question. Is it a cult?
[00:02:53] Will: Legally in Australia.
[00:02:55] Rod: Yeah. See, it comes up on the, when you search cult and like I said at the beginning, he says very carefully, some people at the time considered it to be cultish. So it was found in the 1950s by the science fiction author L Ron Hubbard.
[00:03:08] Will: What was his first name? If you don't like your first name enough
[00:03:10] Rod: I'm going to say Larissa.
[00:03:12] Will: I've always wondered, you know, why don't go just go by Ron Hubbard. Like if you like your middle name or you go by Ron, that's cool.
[00:03:17] Rod: So he taught his people fears, insecurities, psychosomatic illnesses can all be cleansed by better connecting with our souls. And our souls are of course, extraterrestrial in origin.
[00:03:26] Will: Well, I was with him a little of the way. Not all of the way.
[00:03:30] Rod: Yeah. The souls are also known as thetans. They're immortal. And before they arrived on earth, they existed inside aliens.
[00:03:36] Will: So, so just to pause though, that statement is not necessarily culty. There are many different religions in the world and they have different ideas of where the soul comes from,
[00:03:44] Rod: different origin stories
[00:03:46] Will: What makes it culty?
[00:03:47] Rod: We're getting to that. So modern society, of course, doesn't realize this is what happened. So apparently, I mean, the gist of it is they arrived in a bunch of spaceships, which honestly, literally described as looking kind of like old sort of 1950s airliners.
[00:04:02] Will: So souls have to travel in spaceships?
[00:04:04] Rod: Well, the aliens that had our souls originally did
[00:04:06] Will: and they have them in bags?
[00:04:07] Rod: In their bodies. And then they ended up, as I remember it in volcanoes.
[00:04:10] Will: Yeah. Well, obviously. That's where you park your spaceship.
[00:04:13] Rod: No, well then the souls came out and we got them. And they also said basically most particularly psychological ailments and misdiagnoses and we can cure them by, you know, being Better
[00:04:21] Will: Being better. No, that is common like mother-in-law sort of statement. Why don't you just be happy?
[00:04:26] Rod: You gotta sniffle. Why don't think cleaner?
[00:04:28] Will: Why don't you just think happy? What I always find is I think happy and then the dark thoughts go away.
[00:04:33] Rod: Look at me. No pleurisy. So I was told many of the management systems had jargon that came from scientology talk
[00:04:41] Will: management systems in your restaurant
[00:04:43] Rod: and the labels and stuff. But honestly, at face value though, they just seemed like that's fine.
[00:04:47] Will: So make sure your accounts line up with your thetans as well.
[00:04:50] Rod: No, literally just the titles. Like they talk about how you'd have different hats, which apparently at the time was unusual and that was a very Scientology thing to say. I didn't know this. It didn't bother me. Cause I think L Ron Hubbard put out kind of how to manage a company or how you should be a leader and stuff like this as well.
[00:05:03] Will: I think Jesus said as well, like while he was just final sermons, he's like, okay, I got a few more, I've got a few more in me. Entrepreneurial. Yeah. Yeah. You want to make some money? Then here's what you probably disruptive innovation. I think Jesus said that.
[00:05:15] Rod: He was disruptive. He turned over those tables where they're doing the Lamington drive at the church. He got mad with them. That's disruptive.
[00:05:21] Will: I don't think it was a Lamington drive. And I don't think it was a church.
[00:05:24] Rod: Pies. Lamington drive? You monsters. You wanna be entrepreneurial? It should be Logan Berry.
[00:05:30] Will: I do. I do like the I idea of the son of God coming down and going, that's it, final straw. Yeah. Fucking cook and lamingtons in the church. I've had enough, it's too much.
[00:05:37] Rod: You guys are fucking monsters. Eternal damnation.
[00:05:39] Will: Poor old Lord lamington though. Lord Lamington didn't like lamingtons and he was pissed when they named him after him, which I love.
[00:05:46] Rod: That'd be like naming me after being buried alive. Sorry. Naming buried alive after me. That's better.
[00:05:53] Will: Rod condition.
[00:05:54] Rod: Yes. You've been lambertzified.
[00:05:56] Will: Lamingtons for those internationally are a little bit of sponge covered in chocolate and then covered in coconut on the outside.
[00:06:01] Rod: And for the sophisticants among us with a layer of cream in the middle, because extra moistness. Anyway. So I was told many of the systems were using jargon from scientology or sci fi, as we call it. And rumors among many of the staff in our restaurant and others, they said, Oh, a lot of the assistant managers are shift managers, occasionally they'd get approached to, you know, learn more.
[00:06:20] Will: Oh, so you were in track.
[00:06:21] Rod: I was never approached in any vague way.
[00:06:24] Will: But they gave you management track, but not godly track.
[00:06:26] Rod: Cause it's also a company. They wanted to make money and I was actually quite good at the job.
[00:06:29] Will: So you're like the useful idiot or can't get, you can't get into the, what's the term for that?
[00:06:35] Rod: Lambert's again. It was another thing to name it. Useful idiot.
[00:06:39] Will: This guy can do the books, but he ain't coming to the godly part.
[00:06:42] Rod: He's functional, but not that functional. But no, so I'd hear all these rumors, but I never, I was never approached like ever. There was some funny times and some, you know, rather extremely naive views and some of the senior managers would come down and talk to us and we'd just sit there going, that's hilarious. So they never proselytize. There was never any talk of Scientology.
[00:06:57] Will: So they just, it would be in the air, but not like, okay, sunday morning is cult clock.
[00:07:01] Rod: Yeah, no, there was none of that. So, but it was always like, the owners and the senior managers were sci fis and they, you know, the owner's names appear on lists of donations to Scientology and stuff like that. So. It was never mentioned explicitly.
[00:07:14] Well, is it a cult though? This is a question. So I can't say for sure that it was from my perspective. I didn't see any of it.
[00:07:19] Will: Well, you're not in it.
[00:07:20] Rod: No, I'm not in it or am I? But also I never get approached by people who have these strong belief systems like ever. I wish they would, but they never talked to me.
[00:07:29] Like I used to, as an undergrad, I'd walk past the focus students, you know, the Jesus on campus students. Looking him in the eye and they're like...
[00:07:35] Will: I'm not talking to that guy because you've got trouble causer written over all of you
[00:07:41] Rod: and like in the shopping centers, you know, there are different, you know, Hari Krishnas don't even talk to me. I'm like, I don't know, beef with them. It's just like, but why don't you talk to me? And they won't, they look at me and they're like, no, not that guy.
[00:07:52] Will: I don't want to veer into another territory of awful people. But sex offenders, they look for certain people. They might groom towards a certain target because of certain things
[00:08:03] Rod: they notice characteristics or
[00:08:05] Will: maybe you don't have that
[00:08:06] Rod: pretty confident I don't, because honestly, there are times that I'm like, Talk to me. I want to really, I want to ask you some fucking questions.
[00:08:13] Will: I was walking through campus the other day and there's been some people attempting to say, join our church. Fine. Whatever. They don't offer to me as well, but you could see there was some young guys that were having the convo and it's like, and you can hear, I just will pass. And one's like, well, I think it is more rational to, and I was like, Oh yeah.
[00:08:33] Rod: But have you scienced?
[00:08:34] Will: I want to be a million miles away from this conversation
[00:08:37] Rod: and right there as well.
[00:08:38] Will: Like four very well self possessed people in their own views, but utterly
[00:08:45] Rod: both convinced they can change the other one's mind by just rationality pulling down. No, but belief. No, but the science. No, but maths. No, but faith. You're like, yep. Good for you.
[00:08:57] Will: Is Scientology a cult?
[00:08:58] Rod: Look, I've heard arguments for it being a cult.
[00:09:00] Will: Is there a legal definition that we can work with for a cult that we can work backwards?
[00:09:03] Rod: I have some definitions for you. So, former Harvard Medical School psychiatrist, a guy called Robert Lifton, he wrote a paper in the 80s called Cult Formation.
[00:09:11] He said that there are three primary characteristics that are most commonly shared by But the emphasis here is destructive cults. He doesn't, as far as I'm aware, compare that to non destructive. He just says destructive cults. One, a charismatic leader. So they increasingly become an object of worship.
[00:09:28] The general principles that may have originally started the group kind of fall away and the leader becomes the object of meaning, accountability, et cetera, and the sole authority. That's one charismatic leader. Two, process of indoctrination or education. Which probably looks like the quotes are either coercive persuasion or thought reform, aka brainwashing.
[00:09:49] So the culmination of this process is the group often do things that are not in their own best interest, but it's certainly consistently in the interest of the group and or particularly the leader. So no surprise there. And the third one, economic, sexual, or other exploitation of the rulers by the leader or the ruling mob.
[00:10:07] Will: So give me them again.
[00:10:07] Rod: So you got charismatic leader, process of indoctrination and some versions of exploitation by leader and their lieutenants.
[00:10:15] Will: Does this include like a specific sort of coercive element in sort of forcing people and stopping people from leaving? Is that part of the indoctrination?
[00:10:23] Rod: In many cases, they are discouraged to leave, let's just say. I mean, we'll get to this. These are the 10 warning signs. Actually, no, to be fair, I dunno if that comes from this guy's book, but it's been quoted all over the shop when you look up cults 10 clear warning signs as they call it potentially unsafe group or leader. I know it's 10 but they're not long.
[00:10:39] One absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability. So I'm just the boss and that's the statement. Two, no tolerance for questions or critical inquiry. Sounds like the education system, man. . Three Or the Liberal Party, am I right?
[00:10:52] Will: Hey, nice. Or insert your hated political party.
[00:10:56] Rod: Yeah. Yeah. Insert other here. Them, insert them here. Three, no meaningful financial disclosure about budget or expenses. No independently authorized or audited financial statements.
[00:11:07] Will: Okay. Okay. So we're just using money and not saying what it's going.
[00:11:11] Rod: Did it come in or not? Did they spend it on me? Did they give it to me first? Unreasonable fear about the outside world often impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies, notions of persecution, all that sort of good stuff. They're not saying you need all 10 of these. They're saying these are things to look out for.
[00:11:26] No legitimate reasons, number five, to leave. Former followers are always wrong in leaving. They're negative or they're even perhaps evil. Always wrong. They failed. If you've left, you fucked up. You're wrong. You're evil. You're bad. Former members, number six, often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect similar patterns of grievances.
[00:11:41] So they're saying a warning sign of a cult is other people who've been in cults say the same thing. Yeah, it's kind of like a norming.
[00:11:48] Will: But then they would say that.
[00:11:49] Rod: Well, they would cause they've been in a cult.
[00:11:50] Will: Yeah, cause they're evil.
[00:11:52] Rod: Yeah. Oh yeah, that's true. They left cause they couldn't hack it. They weren't pure enough. They weren't worthy. There was a lot of worthy. Seven, their records, books, news articles, broadcast reports, podcast, et cetera, that document all the abuses. So there's on record stuff. Eight, followers feel they can never be good enough.
[00:12:07] Will: Oh, even when they're in there?
[00:12:08] Rod: Yeah. Like especially that's how you keep them there cause you know, you're always almost where you could just be a bit better. There's always one more level, one more thing, one more thing you could do. The group leader is always right. That's number nine. And finally the group leader or the leader of the upper echelons, they are the exclusive way of knowing the truth, receiving validation, et cetera. No other process of discovery is credible.
[00:12:30] Will: So not even a book.
[00:12:31] Rod: Unless they wrote the book or endorsed the book. It's got to come through.
[00:12:35] Will: I'd be cautious. If I was seeing a charismatic leader of a cult, you can have the book when I'm dead, but up until that point, it's me. And then you have the book but while I'm still around book has no authority and then
[00:12:45] Rod: that's because you're not an idiot. You know how to run a cult
[00:12:47] Will: keep things in advance.
[00:12:48] Rod: We can talk about that later. So obviously I'm going to check a couple out. I'm just going to give you a couple of examples. Two I've never heard of before. God, there are a lot, obviously.
[00:12:55] Will: Oh my god. You may not have seen this, but are there like global patterns? Like who has the most cults?
[00:13:00] Rod: Look, America features highly. Not shockingly.
[00:13:03] Will: I mean, would that be sort of a more libertarian, you know, they explicitly have freedom of religion in their constitution, but many other countries do so that's one part.
[00:13:10] Rod: Yeah. Look, I'll talk about that in a tick because there is certain predilections, who's going to be more likely to get involved?
[00:13:16] Will: I imagine whilst there would be cults in China, authoritarian governments might like them less.
[00:13:22] Rod: Well, Falun Dafa. I saw a bunch of them marching outside the embassy earlier this week, in fact, the Chinese government does not like them. They are definitely, they tick many cult boxes.
[00:13:32] Will: And from the Chinese government perspective , they're working that way. But I'm wondering if potentially, now I don't know a lot about the insides the insides or the doctrines of Falun Gong, but you could imagine that the Chinese government's threshold for stamping out a cult is a hell of a lot lower than say the American government, like the American government, you've got to go really pretty bad before you're going to get stamped out. China probably
[00:13:53] Rod: or any kind of threat to the authority of what some might call a different kind of cult. But then again let's wait till November and see what happens to America, speaking of, you know, particular leaders.
[00:14:03] So two that I've never heard of, but to be clear upfront, these are not good cults. Okay. And it'll become apparent eventually. It's quite subtle, but you might see a few indicators of it not being great.
[00:14:14] So the order of the solar temple. I don't know if you've heard of them.
[00:14:16] Will: That's a nice name.
[00:14:17] Rod: Sounds august, right? It's very European.
[00:14:19] Will: Like what sort of European are we talking like high pants?
[00:14:23] Rod: Started in Geneva.
[00:14:24] Will: Geneva.
[00:14:25] Rod: I know. I'm like a Swiss cult? One thing's for sure.
[00:14:29] Will: It's on time. See, I can be part of the on time cult. I'll come back to that.
[00:14:33] Rod: So I started in Geneva in 1994 by Joseph di Mambro and Luc Jouret. So Jouret claimed to be both Christ and the reincarnation of a member of the 14th century Knights Templar, which we know, the subject of many movies, who doesn't want to be a Templar or not want to be a Templar.
[00:14:50] Will: Of course. Like, like when you're looking for your reincarnation person, you go for
[00:14:53] Rod: Jesus, napoleon, Caesar, Cleopatra, Or a Templar. Those are the ones. go to any insane asylum, that's what they're called.
[00:15:01] Will: No, man, I'm going obscure. I'm going
[00:15:03] Rod: Kurt cobain. I met him, you know .
[00:15:05] Will: Oh my God. Oh my God. No. I go, you know, the guy that invented dice or something like that? Or a pirate. Maybe a pirate would be nice. Black beard. That's that'll do.
[00:15:15] Rod: Anyway. So yes, the Jouret is the, both Christ and a member reincarnated.
[00:15:21] Will: So he's like Christ with a sword.
[00:15:23] Rod: Why do you need to be more on Christ? Oh, dude, you had me at Christ. That's pretty impressive.
[00:15:26] Will: And Jesus's little brother as well. Weirdly, I'm both of them. John. There was a whole family after Jesus. Like, Mary didn't sit around waiting for God to do it again.
[00:15:35] Rod: How could she get pregnant after having all that jism in her? Like surely that just blasted her womb clean.
[00:15:39] Will: No, she birthed him normally.
[00:15:40] Rod: But surely that was the end of it.
[00:15:41] Will: No, well, and then Joseph, like his stepdad came in and said, well, okay, Mary, you had one go. I'm sure God was good. Now let's have second best sex for the rest of our lives. It'll be cool. There's a whole bunch more kids. That's a historical fact.
[00:15:56] Rod: Is it?
[00:15:57] Will: Yes.
[00:15:58] Rod: Historical fact. Guaranteed. Joseph and Mary definitely existed. Were only one couple and they had nine kids. So anyway, these guys both fancied themselves. So Di Mambro and Jouret fancied themselves the leaders of the new version of the Templars, which a lot of people have fancied themselves as being.
[00:16:18] They prophesize that Di Mambro's daughter would take the group's members to a planet that revolved around the star Sirius after their earthly death. Classic Templar law.
[00:16:27] Will: No, obviously take the Holy lands and then go to another planet on our horses. We will gallop, there will be a big ramp and you'll be able to take off and go to the stars.
[00:16:35] Rod: No, you'll go in a catapult or maybe a trebuchet
[00:16:39] Will: Do you know, you probably could build a trebuchet big enough to launch someone to the stars. Like theoretically
[00:16:44] Rod: you reckon you could get through the atmosphere. You can reach escape velocity with a trebuchet.
[00:16:47] Will: I reckon you could. Trebuchet accelerates quite a lot. It would take a, like physicists, give me a diagram here, but I think you could theoretically make a trebuchet that would be big enough to launch to space.
[00:16:59] Rod: So yeah, his daughter was going to become, one of their daughters would become the leader and off they'd go. Di Mambro and Jauret both believed the end of the world would come in the mid 1990s. But the group lost a bunch of members, including Di Mambro's daughter, which is a bit awkward when one of the leaders visions was exposed as a hoax. It's like, what are you bullshitting me? You had a vision that turns out it's bullshit and it didn't happen?
[00:17:20] So even his daughter left, that's early 1990s. And in 1994, Di Mambro and Jauret thought, nah, the end's near, it's coming. That's 94. October that year, 53 members of the order committed suicide and, or were murdered in Canada and Switzerland.
[00:17:34] Will: Great.
[00:17:35] Rod: With a reason, in order to transit to the new planet.
[00:17:40] Will: Oh, so it's not real murder. It's soul escape.
[00:17:42] Rod: It's moving on.
[00:17:43] Will: Yeah. We're just letting the soul out, travel through the knife holes. Like these are soul holes. How do you let the soul out of the body? Like straight through the heart or something like that.
[00:17:51] Rod: You need a soul hole. You're right. You need a soul hole. So the buildings that they were in were set fire after their deaths. I don't know by who, but
[00:17:57] Will: also once the souls are out, you've got burn faster
[00:17:59] Rod: yeah. It's like when you catch a train, you got to burn the station you left from, otherwise the train won't get there. Everyone knows that.
[00:18:05] There's no way this thing's turning around now because there's nowhere to turn around to like trains often do. So and in 1995 or 96, at least 20 more members died in France and Canada. It also turns out that not long before his death, Di Mambro had ordered the murder of an infant he thought was the Antichrist. So old school, hardcore doomsday cult with all the insanity that prevails. That's one.
[00:18:26] Will: Okay. We'll chalk that down to not a good cult.
[00:18:28] Rod: Not a good cult.
[00:18:29] Will: You know, you know, all your members die and you're murdering babies. You're down the bottom. There might be below a baby murdering cult. I don't know. Let's just assume it's towards the bottom. Oh, every time you think, no, the floor is here, the floor is always lower.
[00:18:43] Rod: Oh yeah. Not to be fair, this is not a doomsday cult. So that's good. Right?
[00:18:47] Will: Yeah. Well, I want to say yes, but you want me to say no.
[00:18:51] Rod: I wanted you to say yes too. It's good that it's not a doomsday cult 'cause it's true. So the NXIVM cult which is pronounced nex xm, like the famous anti gastric reflux drug. So NXIVM cult upstate New York led by a guy called Keith Raniere.
[00:19:07] Will: Keith's of the world. You can have a cult too.
[00:19:09] Rod: There should be the cult of, there probably is, cult of Keith's.
[00:19:11] Will: There is a cult. There's a cult based on name. Cause it was a mate of mine's name. Hawkins, I think. So all there as a last name, like there is, there's a cult based around the last name Hawkins and I don't know more than that.
[00:19:24] Rod: So, Keith in the NXIVM cult claimed to offer executive stress programs for self improvement.
[00:19:29] Will: It doesn't sound the worst.
[00:19:30] Rod: It doesn't. Sounds great. He was especially good at using shame and guilt to manipulate the women his deputies would recruit for him.
[00:19:38] Will: Stop. If you can't get someone to have sex with you without using shame and guilt.
[00:19:44] Rod: Learn guitar. Juggle.
[00:19:47] Will: Juggling being the sexy sport. You would be surprised how many relationships.
[00:19:51] Rod: I stand on a street corner, throw one ball up and down in the air, and I'm exhausted by the end of the day, sexually.
[00:20:02] Will: But yeah, back down on the shame and guilt. Like, like, could you not?
[00:20:05] Rod: He would tell them things like they had been high ranking Nazis in their former lives. Oh, you know, that old line.
[00:20:10] Will: Ah, I'm doing management consulting. Wait. I'm getting some hints of Nazi
[00:20:14] Rod: and getting a skull badge, black hat, something to do with one arm. Were you a Nazi in a formal life?
[00:20:21] Will: That's a fake power that is not a good power. I can spot former Nazis
[00:20:25] Rod: you know, I'm quite the shaman. This is your pleasure. I'm in pressure point of blah, blah, like fuck off your wank. If you want to get laid, say you want to have the intercourse with me.
[00:20:37] Will: I'll take a pleasure point rather than being accused of being a Nazi in a formal life,
[00:20:41] Rod: the sins of me are a problem in this. So yeah, he'd say, look, you probably been a high ranking Nazi in a formal life, do you know how you clean that up?
[00:20:49] Will: Is it going to be good?
[00:20:51] Rod: It's going to be great. You have yogic sex with him to shift Residual bad energy lurking in their systems away. So, hey dear, sweetheart, lovely lady friend.
[00:21:01] Will: What we'll have to do is, downward dog.
[00:21:03] Rod: Now, you used to be a Nazi so, I have to bone you pure, yogically.
[00:21:09] Will: That's not going to solve the problem and it's a fake problem. But also if you want to have the yogic sex and it's consenting, go for it.
[00:21:18] Rod: I agree. You don't need the Nazi bit. To be fair, in his defense, he eventually changed the Nazi thing cause it wasn't really working or it lost its power. So instead he would tell women the privileges of their gender had weakened them, turn them into prideful princesses and that in order to be freed from the prison of their mulling femininity, they needed to submit to a program of discipline and suffering. Suddenly you're thinking yogic sex under false pretenses sounds pretty fucking good, right?
[00:21:47] Will: Can I take neither? Can I take neither?
[00:21:49] Rod: No, you don't have to worry cause you're not a woman suffering princess syndrome because of your pride and mulling femininity.
[00:21:55] Will: Why didn't he try being just a decent
[00:21:58] Rod: not being a cunt.
[00:21:59] Will: Yeah, there are other pathways.
[00:22:01] Rod: Yeah. Keith, if you're listening, try not being a cunt. He never thought of that. You know, right now he's listening. He's gone. Why didn't someone mention that back in?
[00:22:09] Will: Well, maybe it was because he was a former Nazi, but he never looked at himself.
[00:22:12] Rod: He never banged himself clean. Someone had to bang him clean.
[00:22:15] Will: But he's got the power so he needs to find someone else that can bang clean.
[00:22:19] Rod: See, it's not easy running a cult. He had a NXIVM subgroup, the Dominus Obsequius Sororium, which is bastardized Latin for Master of the Obedient Sisterhood. You know. A pyramid of sexual slavery in which members underwrote their vow of obedience to Raniere by having his initials branded on their groins.
[00:22:38] Will: What?
[00:22:39] Rod: It's the least sensitive part of the body.
[00:22:42] Will: Well, it shows commitment.
[00:22:43] Rod: It really does. I don't want to any more longer be one of these people. Burn my groin. Which is a very Irish name.
[00:22:52] Will: Burn McGroin. That's a great irish name. It's a good pub band. Like coming on for the Pogues.
[00:22:59] Rod: It's better than the Flaming Groins. Yeah, so they do that. And then they would hand over collateral. Not money, well as well in the form of compromising personal information and nude photos So they'd hold on to that obviously for reasons you can imagine.
[00:23:13] And oh yeah, money as I mentioned. So 2018 Ranieri was arrested on charges of sex trafficking, racketeering, and other assorted crimes
[00:23:20] Will: and groin burning
[00:23:21] Rod: well, they did it themselves essentially. It was consented, but consent under what circumstances let's not get into that. So at the time he was arrested 2018, they estimated his little subgroup of the sorority had more than a hundred members.
[00:23:37] He's currently serving a 120 year sentence, which is handy, for sex trafficking, racketeering, etc, and yet to pay a 1. 75 million dollar fine.
[00:23:45] Will: We kind of don't need money anymore. Once
[00:23:47] Rod: you don't
[00:23:48] Will: I think 120 years in jail and here's a fine.
[00:23:51] Rod: You know, dude, I've got to get through the 120 years, you want to take my money? But as a cult guy, maybe it turns out he could do that. Maybe he got the powers of living a long time in jail.
[00:24:02] Will: Oh, it's possible. Yoga sexed himself into long life.
[00:24:06] Rod: Yoga sexed himself?
[00:24:07] Will: Well, I'm sure people do it.
[00:24:10] Rod: So these are clearly not great.
[00:24:13] Will: Still definitely not good. I can accept they are not even in the boundaries.
[00:24:16] Rod: I would say you're very liberal mind. And look, this is just two. There are many examples as anyone listening right now has probably gone. I know a worse one, or I've heard three others. We all know that you as well being pure of heart, probably don't really know, but they're not great. But look, this begs one of the questions is why do people cult? Like, why would
[00:24:35] Will: You mean not the leaders, but the followers?
[00:24:37] Rod: People that lift and hold them up. And we kind of hinted at this at the beginning. It's like, why are you doing this to yourselves? So a common theory, which you'd expect, and you could probably make this up yourself. The more uncertainty people have in their environments, be at a global level or a more close to home, the more their levels of religiosity and cults affiliation tend rise. The more people feel control.
[00:24:59] Will: You're looking for certainty.
[00:25:00] Rod: Control or what looks like control.
[00:25:02] Will: So here's a bunch of instructions for your life.
[00:25:04] Rod: Yep, here's a higher power, be it a person, a force, whatever it may be that makes things simple and this is often an explanation for that's offered for why cults were really getting really large in the US in the sixties, you know, everyone was into all kinds of cool and kooky things.
[00:25:18] Will: Oh, a time of heightened uncertainty.
[00:25:20] Rod: Cold war, et cetera. You know, the world's all fucked up and messy, unlike now where everything's working fine. Also being suggested that Americans compared to other countries that are similar, you know, Australia, Britain, New Zealand, blah, blah, blah have way more on average, economic uncertainty, way fewer social safety nets so they are more likely and still today have high levels, weirdly high levels of religiosity, cult membership.
[00:25:42] Will: I think probably the religiosity is probably, there's probably a bunch of other things here to go, but I do know that The American economy does go through wider swings in the boom bus cycle.
[00:25:52] A lot of the other developed world economies are much more Keynesian. So they narrowed down those boom bus cycles a bit with unemployment insurance and various things like that. And so you could imagine higher boom bus cycles lead to greater uncertainty, potentially greater cults. Okay.
[00:26:07] Rod: Well, I think there's no question that's like, it's very hard to argue against that premise, like very hard. And let's add another one. Just one other thing for why we might cult. This is a really good human psychological gift, a skill we have. Psychology of cult membership is literally like textbook definition of cognitive dissonance and to top it off, and I didn't know this.
[00:26:25] Will: Give me the textbook definition.
[00:26:26] Rod: Oh, I'm gonna. It's the ability to essentially hold onto a belief, even when it's confronted by utterly and clear contradictory evidence in this instance and it was literally termed in the fifties when a psychologist called Leon Festinger was studying the first UFO cult.
[00:26:42] Will: Yeah. Okay.
[00:26:42] Rod: That's where it came from.
[00:26:43] Will: So the cognitive dissonance that they're like, no, we've got evidence. It's not evidence.
[00:26:46] Rod: Fuck that. You've made my belief stronger. You're like, Oh, of course we have. So he was studying it, what they reckon is the first UFO cult. The seekers also called the brotherhood of the seven rays.
[00:26:54] Will: No, that was Judith Durham. If I know one thing, one thing about them old timey musics.
[00:26:59] Rod: All bound for.
[00:27:00] Will: Morningtown. Many miles away.
[00:27:02] Rod: Morning glory. All bound for morning glory, lying right next to me. When I was a kid, that was one of the musics that we..
[00:27:07] Will: Look for me, I don't know Judith Durham and the Seekers, but that song was played in primary school. It's a very teacher in the eighties playing music on. It will be rock and roll and riding.
[00:27:16] Rod: I had a fourth grade teacher who'd bring her guitar in and she would play and sing. She was a very nice teacher, but it was just... grown up me goes, Oh Christ, it's so embarrassing. She was lovely.
[00:27:25] Will: There you go. There you go. And the kids loved it. You're in grade four.
[00:27:28] Rod: Mrs. Walsh. If you're alive, she might not be. She might only be 10 years older than me.
[00:27:34] Will: So, so she'd be 38.
[00:27:36] Rod: Stop sucking up. So yeah, it literally came about. So this particular group was led by Dorothy Martin, who said she got telepathic messages from aliens called the guardians who came from the planet Clarion, which used to be, I think, loudspeaker makers.
[00:27:52] They told her the United States was going to be destroyed by a massive earthquake and huge tidal wave on December 21st, 1954. It wasn't.
[00:28:00] Will: What? No,
[00:28:01] Rod: I know you probably didn't realize that. I know. So a bunch of her members went, fuck this and left, but a bunch didn't. Speaking of cognitive dissonance, they doubled down.
[00:28:09] And so for the first time, they went out and actively proselytized to people about the cult, which wasn't happening before. And said, nah, it's going to happen on Christmas Eve. So they had a short window.
[00:28:18] Will: That's a very short time to double down.
[00:28:20] Rod: We're not going to go 20 years. We're going to go three days. Three days. We're just out by a bit. We didn't adjust for daylight savings.
[00:28:26] I think
[00:28:27] Will: there must be a sweet spot. There must be a sweet spot for three days, three days. It's not, you've got to get out there. You've got to, it takes a long time to get the message out there. I think you need like a seven years. That's the window. You know much longer than that, people are like, I don't care.
[00:28:39] Rod: Seven times seven thrice declined.
[00:28:40] Will: Oh, nice. And you get the seventh son of a seventh son, like, iron Maiden. Oh no. Who is he? Perry Como.
[00:28:47] Rod: Is he?
[00:28:47] Will: Yeah. I've told you that before.
[00:28:49] Rod: The high war Lord.
[00:28:50] Will: I don't know. I don't know. But Perry Como is a seventh son of a seventh son.
[00:28:53] Rod: Get fucked. That's awesome. look at that. Look into seven sons of Seven Sons for me. Write that down.
[00:28:58] Will: And I'll be like. There's one, it's Perry Como
[00:29:00] Rod: short episode, but at least it was accurate. But so you know what happened of course, on, on Christmas Eve, 1954, again, America did not get destroyed. So the believers who stayed speaking of cognitive dissonance said, Oh, that's cause their faith had kept the bad away
[00:29:16] Will: oh, that we kept it away. We kept it away. We did the work. Yeah. Yeah. We did it. We thought it was going to come. We were wrong, but we prayed so hard or we yoga sexed so hard?
[00:29:27] Rod: We culted.
[00:29:28] Will: I think they yoga sexed. They definitely yoga sex.
[00:29:30] Rod: Let's not blur our cults together. That's disrespectful. These people, they were the side hug cult.
[00:29:34] Will: But you could watch for aliens and have yoga sex.
[00:29:38] Rod: So it seems we do cults. Why do we cult? Well, we crave certainty, particularly in uncertain times. And more to the point, which I've always found amazing. Of course, I've never done this. We're more comfy looking crazy than looking wrong.
[00:29:51] Will: Are we?
[00:29:52] Rod: Often. You've seen people do this, double down on dumb things in minor levels as well as major because
[00:29:58] Will: yeah, stick to your argument, stick to your argument.
[00:30:00] Rod: Fuck if I'm going to admit I was wrong, it's like you could and then you'd not look like such a tool. But apparently no.
[00:30:05] Will: Did you come across any data on who joins cults? Cause I read something once that potentially it led towards as well as that uncertainty, but smarter people are more likely to join cults.
[00:30:15] Rod: I didn't read that.
[00:30:16] Will: Sorry, I know you're all actually geniuses.
[00:30:18] Rod: You're all in danger. If you're not cult members already. I don't know if you can remember more than one though. I didn't look at that.
[00:30:25] Will: Join three or four cults.
[00:30:26] Rod: I'm in four cults. It's exhausting, but it's worth it. I'm so uplifted.
[00:30:33] Will: Well, maybe they can line up. You can have a UFO cult and like, a fruit eating cult and a fuck cult. That's for my Fridays and Saturdays.
[00:30:40] Rod: And need the fruit to have the energy for the fuck cult and the UFOs to take your mind off things.
[00:30:44] Will: So there you go. That'll be three.
[00:30:45] Rod: I never thought of that more than one cult at a time.
[00:30:48] Will: I think computer says no. Cults require devotion to the one. You know, the whole thing about, you know, sneaking around and having another family in a city nearby,
[00:30:55] Rod: no one has proven that. I'm sick of the accusations
[00:30:58] Will: but I imagine there's a whole bunch of stress that says, You know, I actually have two families with four kids in two different cities. That would suck.
[00:31:07] Rod: Horrifying.
[00:31:08] Will: But can you imagine running around on two Colts going,
[00:31:12] Rod: what if the dudes in the blue robes find me when I'm wearing my red hat and the stilettos? So good cults. I rummaged hard. Sociologist, Dr. Elizabeth Puttick, she wrote a book called women in new religions in search of community, sexuality, and spiritual power. And she said some women are actually empowered by cults.
[00:31:35] Will: I can totally believe it. The landscape around you is pretty draconian and tough. Maybe it's a pathway to becoming a little bit more independent maybe.
[00:31:44] Rod: And there's a whole bunch of this stuff is under the title of new religious movements, N. R. M. . Which many people who, or groups who are accused of being cults recently would rather say, no, we're a new religious movement.
[00:31:53] Will: Just to go here, you know, you started with destructive cults. Cult is pretty much associated with, it's a negative, whereas the other one, you could just go, okay, it's a small religious movement. It's not one of the big churches, not one of the big million plus, but it's
[00:32:08] Rod: got to start somewhere. So there's a long interview with Puttick. I'll just give you a couple of quotes cause it's interesting. She said, look, I had a very positive personal experience of living in an NRM new religious movement, which offered women a lot of spiritual empowerment. The Osho movement.
[00:32:21] I want to explore how my experience compared with women in other religions, old and new, that's what she was doing. Why did she join? So she said, I was exploring the human potential movement. I was interested in meditation. I wanted something more actively spiritual and I joined more psychotherapy type groups.
[00:32:36] She's a sociologist. She's an educated woman. Quite a few people I know were going out to India and discovered Osho and joining up. He was a very intelligent guru, a philosopher by training. Some movements were very devotional, but Osho or the Osho movement had its philosophical side as well and it was an adventure for her. She was a member of the movement for about five years.
[00:32:58] Will: Just give me a timeline here. So she was a member while she was a sociologist researcher? It wasn't like it was a before and then I came out
[00:33:06] Rod: I believe these were concurrent. I could be wrong cause this didn't come up in the interview. And so the interviewer says, you know, how long were you part of the gig? And she said, Oh, I lived in India for five years. We left when Osho left India and after a while, I kind of drifted away. Have you heard of Osho?
[00:33:22] Will: Look, I think I have, I think I have, but I wouldn't be able to put more of a pin on it than that. It's sort of background noise.
[00:33:28] Rod: So otherwise known as the Rajneesh movement, the Bhagwan, the orange people. So that was a religious movement inspired by Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh in the later last century. And one of the many quotes from him, it's a religion- less religion, only a quality of love, silence, meditation, and prayerfulness.
[00:33:47] Will: That's not bad.
[00:33:48] Rod: It's not bad. People follow the norms of wearing similar clothes, orange, participating in the same activities.
[00:33:53] Will: We do that. It's just blue.
[00:33:55] Rod: And everyone says for a cult, what you need is kind of a powder blue, they're the powder blue people. The people were allowed to come and go as long as they didn't hurt anyone.
[00:34:04] Will: Okay. If you hurt someone, you gotta stay or you gotta go
[00:34:07] Rod: oh, fuck off. Yeah, you're out, allegedly. He wasn't into marriage and kids 'cause according to him anyway, families are really dysfunctional and also apparently very good at business. He became famous for having a think when he finally kicked the tin or finished, he had 93 rolls for Royces.
[00:34:21] Will: There's a little bit of me that says that's a bit of a sign, you don't need 93.
[00:34:26] Rod: No, I'm thinking 80s enough. I can't drive more than 80 cars at a time.
[00:34:30] Will: Oh, I'd love to
[00:34:31] Rod: but I don't understand it when you see rich people and like, this is my car collection.
[00:34:34] Will: I want to see a stunt driver, you know, I like ghosting other bikes, you know, where you've got one bike and you're riding another bike next to you. Like that, you know, sometimes you got to do that. I reckon you put two cars, one going forward and one going in reverse and you sit between them and steer them. Stunt drivers, please achieve that one for me.
[00:34:49] Rod: That impresses me. But what I get confused by is having more than one car.
[00:34:52] Will: I think it's the legs down onto the accelerator pedals that is going to be hard.
[00:34:55] Rod: You get a thing attached to your chin, a stick. He had a second in command and this really sticks in my head because I remember her doing TV interviews in Australia in the eighties. So her name was Sheela. She was his two IC. She came to Australia in the mid eighties. And honestly, I watched the interviews freak me the fuck out. She was a freaking hardcore, savage, dead eyed woman. Terrifying. So she did 60 minutes and other new shows
[00:35:20] Will: but they liked the dead eyed people on 60 minutes. Find someone dead eyed for me and that's what we want.
[00:35:25] Rod: And it was a heyday too. 60 minutes in the eighties going off. So she arrived in WA Western Australia in 85 to set up an office at their commune in Fremantle, but everyone got the shits cause people in that area, a rich follower bought a spot near Pemberton. I don't know where that is other than in WA. They established a commune school, et cetera. And apparently the locals got pretty hysterical and freaked out.
[00:35:47] Will: Good on you locals.
[00:35:48] Rod: Yep. There were public meetings, building applications were rejected. Local Shires got the shits.
[00:35:53] Will: That's what you do. Beat them down in the bureaucracy.
[00:35:55] Rod: Yeah. So Sheela comes out, sets up an office there and starts going on a interview tour of the country. And she said, look, she described the townspeople different ways, including stupid, idiotic prune faces and fruit cases.
[00:36:07] Will: Prune faces! You don't got to say that on TV. It's like people can't help a prune face.
[00:36:13] Rod: Resting prune face?
[00:36:14] Will: Resting prune face.
[00:36:16] Rod: Write that down. What she became famous for when she was specifically asked about the concerns of people in Pemberton in an interview, and I remember this too. She was asked, well, what about them? Her quote was, what can I say? Tough titties. So she became the tough titties lady.
[00:36:34] Will: You say that on the news once.
[00:36:36] Rod: Especially in the eighties. So she didn't go well.
[00:36:39] Will: So hang on, is this still a good cult or not a good cult?
[00:36:42] Rod: Well, this is what Puttick was saying. I'm just giving you background to this cult that she said was actually quite empowering for women. Sheela's story is long and involved in itself. She and Bhagwan eventually broke up. Eight months after they broke up, 85, Sheela pleaded guilty to attempted murder, electronic eavesdropping, immigration fraud, and engineering a salmonella outbreak that made more than 750 people ill.
[00:37:04] Will: Engineering a salmonella outbreak?
[00:37:06] Rod: Like putting shit in restaurant food in salads I think it was.
[00:37:09] Will: You know, in a way that's not just like normal waitstaff going, fuck that guy.
[00:37:13] Rod: No. She went, we are going to like deliberately go and, so she was given concurrent four and a half year federal prison terms and a five year suspended sentence
[00:37:21] Will: concurrent means it's a whole bunch of years.
[00:37:24] Rod: I'm doing eight, four year terms next to each other.
[00:37:27] Will: Time does not work that way.
[00:37:28] Rod: Still four years. But it feels like 16. What are you talking about?
[00:37:32] Will: Fucking lawyers. Calm down with that. That's dumb.
[00:37:34] Rod: So she had jail and stuff and then came out. I think last heard from she lives in Switzerland. So the point is, whether it was Bhagwan condemned her, he condemned her, the leader condemned her.
[00:37:45] Will: So, so just to go here, there can be positive elements of this cult. It didn't seem super destructive, but it had tendencies to spiral towards dodgy behaviours.
[00:37:54] Rod: Some of its members did, and there certainly, there was a lot of money moving around but that might not necessarily be dodgy.
[00:37:59] Will: It's not as bad as some of the others that you've said. There's no sex yoga?
[00:38:02] Rod: Fuck no. Apparently not.
[00:38:05] Will: There's no murder, not a lot of murder, minimum murder. Not more than the background, rate. Like if your cult has murder rates the same as the rest of society, then that's okay.
[00:38:14] Rod: You endorse that?
[00:38:15] Will: I guess
[00:38:16] Rod: that's the wholesome thumbs up.
[00:38:18] Will: Just stick to the background rate of murder. That's all. You don't have to be perfect.
[00:38:23] Rod: Don't be a dick about it. Just be normal. So Puttick goes on to say, I just want to give you background to the Osho thing. It's interesting that she described as Osho, not Bhagwan or anything that I found that kind of intrigue. Cause I'm like, Osho, what is that? Like, Oh shoot, it's Bhagwan. Anyway. So she says, talking about the roles women have in NRMs, more progressive movements, such as Osho, women are treated as equal or even superior to men. They're allowed full spiritual and social participation. They're encouraged to teach, they're encouraged to lead. Other movements like that one, plus progressive Buddhist movements, pagan and shamanic groups, they offer women's spiritual power and status and pathways to enlightenment, et cetera, which isn't terrible. And she said back when she got into the Osho thing, women were very much raised up from her perspective, which is radical.
[00:39:07] Will: Yeah. And there could be others that are doing a similar sort of thing.
[00:39:10] Rod: So it's quite radical. So, I mean, the interesting thing about this is, Good and bad, unless she was deeply indoctrinated,
[00:39:16] Will: but it does seem to me if you interview any former cult person, I'm sure they would say, look, the good days were great. You're not going to have a cult if it's 100 percent torture and terror.
[00:39:29] Rod: The moment I saw it, it was terrible.
[00:39:30] Will: Of course, any cult to, to be attractive, it's got to have a whole bunch of good things about it. It's got to provide that certainty or the pathway to individual freedom or a pathway to
[00:39:40] Rod: tickle in the trouser area in a non confronting way.
[00:39:43] Will: All of those, you know, and this is the sex cult thing. I'm sure there's a bunch of people that are like, I was repressed and now I am rooting all the time. There's got to be, there's got to be positive. So even in the terrible cults, so she is saying, yes, there was some good things and I accept that. So we're putting that on a not terrible not perfect, but are you calling it good?
[00:40:04] Rod: I'm calling it not bad. So trying to find actual good cults, not easy. If we broaden the definition of cult to mean, Great devotion to a person or an idea.
[00:40:13] Will: Yeah. Okay. Here we go.
[00:40:15] Rod: Or people united by devotion or allegiance to an artistic or intellectual movement or figure.
[00:40:20] Will: And so it doesn't have to be about, you know, spirituality or
[00:40:24] Rod: maybe it doesn't. This is the question. I mean, cause it's kind of like you flagged earlier is some definitions of cult are intrinsically just cult is bad. Therefore, of course, all cults are bad.
[00:40:32] Will: I don't know when you're going to get to this, but the one I've been thinking about a lot is there's a lot of sports that, even being on a team sport asks you to be there and say, Hey, can you quit some of the other stuff in your life so that you can be here for this?
[00:40:44] And that's partly a, you know, it's a commitment to your friends, but it's also like, okay, this is a positive thing. And there's a whole bunch of gyms, you know, that some of these new gyms that Hey, you didn't turn up on Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday, maybe you'd be feeling better if you did
[00:40:59] Rod: your piece of shit, we hope you die.
[00:41:01] Will: But that's a little bit culty.
[00:41:03] Rod: I was a member of a gym that would do that. You didn't turn up when you said you would, exactly what's going on?
[00:41:07] Will: So we're using some of the cult like things and not saying they are cults because of course they're not talking about your whole life.
[00:41:13] Rod: No, they only take some of your money. Well, and this goes on. So there's a group when I was looking up good cults, again, it was difficult to find. There's a mob called the cult branding company, but they're about branding more than cult.
[00:41:25] Will: Yeah. They're not actually about branding your cults.
[00:41:28] Rod: Benign cults. They talk about this term on their website, benign cults. And I got a disclaimer. This news page is about groups, organizations or movements, which may have been called cults and or cult like in some way, shape or form, but not all groups called either cult or cult like are harmful. Instead, they may be benign and generally defined as simply people intensely devoted to a person, place, or thing.
[00:41:54] Therefore, the discussion or mention of a group organization or person on this page is not necessarily meant to be pejorative. So they have this disclaimer in one of their, one of their pages on their site. And so they're talking about benign cults. They have one trait in common with their negative counterparts, the intensity with which the cult members are attached to the object of their affection.
[00:42:15] Which is fine. Kind of going with what you're saying, your team, whatever it may be. They go on to say benign cults are never destructive. They don't harm or injure their followers physically or mentally. They should add financially.
[00:42:25] Will: I'm screaming for examples here
[00:42:27] Rod: I will get to that. Benign cults have leaders who are accountable to the group and the leaders value feedback of their followers. They're inclusive.
[00:42:35] Will: I do imagine you can imagine a destructive cult going, I value feedback. You know, you just give your feedback in the torture tent
[00:42:41] Rod: and when you get it wrong, you're out. That is incorrect feedback. So yeah, they say they're inclusive. Anyone who wants to belong can. Destructive cults tend to be exclusive so like, as soon as you change or anything wrong, you're out. There's no price to admission. Just being enthusiastic is enough. But the qualifier being enthusiastic about the brand is enough.
[00:43:02] Will: Yeah. Yeah. You gotta care. Like you can't join if you don't care.
[00:43:07] Rod: Are you a member of the cult? Yeah. What do you think about it? Meh, that's fine.
[00:43:10] Will: You're not really a member.
[00:43:11] Rod: I'm ambivalent. So they help fill the emotional needs and wants of followers in a positive way. So there are clear, easy, identifiable, objectively observable benefits derived from being members of benign cults, particularly social benefit. So that means kind of what you were asking about Apple fanboys, Trekkies, obsessive car fans like Holden's rule, et cetera.
[00:43:32] Will: Or sports teams.
[00:43:33] Rod: Yep. You could argue they're benign cults. Fitness and wellness cults, CrossFit, Bikram Yoga, GOOP, you know, the cult of Gwyneth.
[00:43:41] Will: It's interesting that we use those words and people are like, no, I don't mean a real cult but there is a level of all of those things you're talking about before some form of devotion to a leader. The leader is right, even if they're not perfect at some form of community here. So,
[00:43:54] Rod: Food cults, paleo, Atkins, raw. vegan.
[00:43:56] Will: Yep. Because they give answers in a world of uncertainty . Look and, you know, you can absolutely, you know, a dietary cult or a dietary description of, just eat this and this will solve your problem. And if you do it and it works for you, is that a good thing? Yep.
[00:44:13] Rod: I think so. I got no beef with it. So wholesome verdict. Let's get into it. Yeah. Are there, or at least can there be good cults?
[00:44:19] Will: I think there are tendencies that are cult like to ask people to commit a little bit more and question when they might leave that are actually good.
[00:44:29] I think communities have long said you are better off in a community and we will show you those benefits and we'll hold you to them and if you try to leave we'll say, look, are you sure? Things on the outside are worse. I think there are tendencies there that can make you healthier, can make you more connected with people, can make you better off overall.
[00:44:48] Does that tendency lead into potential negatives? Of course. So I reckon cult like things. Like I think it's it'll probably be hard to find something that is, is deeply spiritual, but I reckon there are cult like things that say, look after yourself in this way. It's like the dietary ones or the fitness ones or the music ones.
[00:45:06] They're all like, think about your journey through this life in this way and it can be positive. And I think they're different from the ones that call you evil for leaving, that kind of thing. So I think there are cult like tendencies that we all do and probably they make your life better in a lot of ways if you get them.
[00:45:24] Rod: Yeah. So I mean, if we got old school definition of cult, I'd say, yeah, there are good cults if you're the leader or the leader's generals until you get busted, commit suicide or something else. For the followers, like you mentioned earlier, briefly, at least for a period, there's something good in them.
[00:45:39] If we broaden out a bit more, I agree. Like fitness clubs, food clubs, car clubs, fucking great. You know, like get obsessed with your car, your CrossFit, whatever. That's great. I got no beef with that. So, you know, why not?
[00:45:51] Will: Yeah, I think go too. I think, if you listener, wanted to make a benign cult.
[00:45:56] Rod: Oh, let's be clear. I want to be a cult leader. Oh yeah, cause I have no choice. So my wife does a lot of business and other psychology profiling.
[00:46:02] Will: Have you raised this with her that you want to be a cult leader?
[00:46:04] Rod: she started it. She started it. So she does a lot of these things, like all kinds of different, underlying science backed personality inventories, leadership styles, thinking styles, et cetera. And literally the common thread that runs through them at one point. She read after doing a couple of them using me as a test subject as she qualifies. She's like. Basically you're a cult leader or you should be. And I'm like, fuck, you're right. You're right.
[00:46:25] Will: You know, there's actually a long historical precedent of something that I I think Siddhartha who became the Buddha did this. And I think Jesus may have at once. And I think there might be a few others of that level of, you know, starting big religions who, they're like, I'm doing my thing and they rejected the idea of followers.
[00:46:45] Rod: What better way to get followers?
[00:46:46] Will: No but to say to other people look, this is not about you. I'm doing this for me. And if this benefits you fine, that's good. That's good. And I think, you know, there's that moment when someone comes up with an idea for the world, you know, whether it's spiritual or, you know, aliens or fitness or whatever, I think you can say, look, I will leave this here.
[00:47:06] I will leave this for you and that's all cool. Do it as you will. Like, like the, I think when things get bad is when they go, Oh, but I could get some of the other things. I could become someone who has a closer relationship with followers.
[00:47:18] Rod: Or the good side is thinking personally, I could have a bunch of money and intercourse and all I got to do is say stuff
[00:47:28] Will: find your other pathway.
[00:47:29] Rod: That is my pathway. What's wrong with that? I don't want you to join. If you don't want to be there, I'm not a monster. And if you want to leave, you're allowed, but you can't have your money back.
[00:47:36] Will: This is what I stress about, people following, it's like, do that. I don't want any responsibility for your lives.
[00:47:42] Rod: of course not. No, if it goes wrong, it's their fault. I've learned enough from this alone. No, I don't want to be a cult leader, cause the thing I can't do is not give a fuck. That's the problem. Like I reckon the only way you can be a decent, I mean, really strictly speaking, cult leader is not give a shit about other people. So you have to disconnect from humanity. You have to go like, I don't give a fuck. It's up to you. It's all on you. Fuck you.
[00:48:03] Will: And you'll find most of these people are sociopathic.
[00:48:05] Rod: I just read an article from my Apple newsfeed that said a woman standing there, looking directly at the camera in a scary dead eyed way saying I'm a sociopath, but it's not all bad. Here's what I've discovered. So it's basically telling the sociopath side of things. I'm like, I'm still scared of you.
[00:48:20] Will: I think there's cult like things that are not all bad. But then there's those people that go, I could use this to get some sex.
[00:48:26] Hey, I've been looking through our mailbag. We've recently talked about fears, phobias, what are the common phobias? Well, we had Michaela711 says as long as you know what you're talking about, public speaking is fine. So, you know, different ways of approaching,
[00:48:42] Rod: with knowledge you can be confident. Well, someone says, Hey, you've never done physics. Do a lecture on physics.
[00:48:46] Will: Some people spoke about a fear of buttons. Koumpounophobia
[00:48:50] Rod: Well, we've all been there. If you have a fear of buttons. Please reach out.
[00:48:53] Will: Your fear of buttons is actually, it's people going, I want to wear comfortable clothes. I want to wear t shirts and track pants, no zippers, no buttons, no belts, but I did like, mopshawn says they're afraid about what will happen if wholesome show goes on hiatus again. And I'm like
[00:49:08] Rod: when did we go on hiatus?
[00:49:09] Will: I don't know, but obviously mopshawn, that's the, that's their fear. Here's another one that Mopshon's noted. This is in the definition of sex.
[00:49:18] Rod: Should I be sitting down?
[00:49:21] Will: If the wholesome show isn't playing through my speaker, it isn't sex.
[00:49:25] Rod: I'm the same like sweetheart. It's time. And I put on us. What, you don't too? You should think about it. Think about it.
[00:49:37] Will: A couple of other ones. Thank you, Steven in Adelaide noting that the DB Cooper obviously is a nod in pop culture to coop in twin Peaks. One of the greatest shows of all time. Dale Cooper. So, an FBI agent dressed in an innocuous black and white suit.
[00:49:56] Rod: There is nothing innocuous about Kyle McLaughlin's jawline though. Like you see him in profile, you're like, no one has that profile.
[00:50:01] Will: And roller girl before she was a roller girl. Seriously, Twin Peaks, such a good show. That's a good show. People still wigging out about the end of science, stop it, stop.
[00:50:11] Rod: It hasn't finished yet. If it helps. There's still more science to keep going. We work in a science faculty. There's still science.
[00:50:18] Will: But I do like people that are like, you know, we've invented a lot of things since the 1980s and it's like, yes, 40 years ago. So you're saying the next 400, 000 years will be the same?
[00:50:29] Anyway, what are the topics you've been thinking about?
[00:50:32] Rod: Oh, I've got a few. I've got a few. What are the most useless emotions? And can we actually control emotion?
[00:50:39] Will: Can our super ego go? No, don't feel that.
[00:50:42] Rod: So we start with going, okay, guilt. Shame is another big one people bring up, useless emotion, but I disagree. I think shame is actually destructive as fuck potentially, but it's very useful.
[00:50:51] Will: Shame means you're not going to.
[00:50:54] Rod: You're not being Trump but can we actually control them? So like you say, you shouldn't feel guilt and you're like. Okay. I'll pretend I don't, do you actually have the ability to stop yourself feeling that whatever that emotion is?
[00:51:06] Will: Yeah. I like that. I like that. That's a really, that's really interesting. A little tiny one. This is for economists out there. Over the time in getting wholesome show episodes together, quite often I've gone, okay, someone had. 500 guilders or 700 doubloons or whatever. And there's a big bit of me that's like, how do you convert that to modern money? Like, like, what is a guilder? What is a doubloon?
[00:51:30] Rod: How many firkins is that?
[00:51:33] Will: Like how do you convert to modern money? And there's a bunch of websites that will do something.
[00:51:38] Rod: How much did an iPhone cost in Gilda's when the East India company was trading?
[00:51:40] Will: Or a big Mac, you know, a big Mac in East India company money. And I don't know that this is kind of a technical question, but I think there's something more there. Like how do you convert money from, and how do we understand the concept?
[00:51:52] Rod: How much was a big Mac in Siam? I'm going to go with this one. I've got a couple, but I'm going to just give you this one. I know it's a listicle, but the weirdest and most niche degrees you can actually study as a degree. I started looking and holy fuck. Some you kind of go, whatever, that's just some idiot getting wanky about the fact that it's women's studies, which is not niche or whatever, but.
[00:52:11] Will: No. 50%.
[00:52:12] Rod: My God, there are others. There are some wacky ones.
[00:52:15] Will: I went to Uni in Queensland and the university of sunshine coast was was new around that time. And they had a degree in surfing of some sort.
[00:52:23] Rod: Fuck yeah.
[00:52:23] Will: And a lot of people, I think there was actually a little bit more than that. I'll do this one because this came to me. It was a little rabbit hole, little mini rabbit hole. So there was a story a couple of days ago about a man having his pet alligator taken away from him because he hadn't filled out his form, his paperwork correctly to keep his pet alligator. Now the alligator was old.
[00:52:48] Rod: Was this in Florida by any chance?
[00:52:49] Will: No, it was in New York. It was like a 30 year old alligator. He'd had it for all of those times and he had kept his paperwork up to date his license to keep a pet alligator.
[00:53:00] Rod: This is like one specialist in the bureaucracy who goes, Oh, it's not Keith, you're up. It's your time to shine again.
[00:53:06] Will: And yeah, so he kept it up to date until like COVID and then things had slipped. And so he wasn't up to date. I mean, there was some incidents of allowing people to swim in the pool with the alligator and petting the alligator and things like that. But he said it was a big teddy bear, but anyway, I can imagine you feed it okay. It's not going to eat you.
[00:53:25] But this got me to going, Oh, what's that meme about alligators living in drains in the sewer system.
[00:53:31] Rod: Those are no longer pets.
[00:53:33] Will: Yeah. They're no longer pets. That's what I thought. Was that ever true? Was that not true? And you know what I landed on? I've got to tell you this story. I got to tell you this little story. Like I'd love to find out what lives in our sewers and that's something interesting to me, but I did like this article. This is from the New York times in 1934. So, February 10th, 1935. Yeah. The youthful residents of 123rd Street near the murky Harlem River were having a rather grand time at dusk yesterday, shoveling the last of the recent snow into a gaping manhole.
[00:54:02] Rod: Not a euphemism.
[00:54:03] Will: No, it wasn't. They were literally shoveling snow. Anyway, Salvatore Condolucci, 16 years old of wherever was assigned to the rim. His comrades would heat blackened slush near him and he carefully observing the sewers capacity would give the last fine flick to each mound.
[00:54:19] Suddenly there was signs of a clogging 10 feet below where the manhole drop merged with the dark conduit leading to the river. Salvatore yelled, Hey, you guys, wait a minute. And got down on his knees to see what was the trouble. What he saw in the thickening dust almost caused him to topple into the icy cavern.
[00:54:35] For the jagged surface of the ice blockade below was moving, and something black was breaking through. Salvatore's eyes widened. Then he managed to leap to his friends and go, It's Honest! It's an alligator!
[00:54:45] Rod: They're renowned for their cold weather functioning.
[00:54:48] Will: Yeah. This isn't New York. There was a murmur of skepticism. Jimmy Marino, 19. And then over he comes. He's right. He said, Frank Lonzo, 18 looked next. He also confirmed the specter. Then there was a great crush about the opening in the middle street and heads were bent low looking around the aperture.
[00:55:04] So the animal was apparently threshing about in the ice that they had shoveled down into the manhole. Was it? Where is it? When the first wave had passed, the boys decided to help it out. So I love this. What a good idea. They sent it, they sent a delegation down to the Lehigh Stove and Repair Shop just down the street.
[00:55:20] We want some clothesline. They the kids declared.
[00:55:23] Rod: Rope. String
[00:55:25] Will: so anyway these boys go back and I think Salvatore does it young Condolucci. So this is Salvatore, an expert on Western movies, fashioned a lassoo.
[00:55:35] Rod: Yes, you did.
[00:55:37] Will: And then with the others watching on breathlessly, he and the New York times goes for boring writing here, but I'm going to go he lassoed the alligator in the sewer after several tantalizing near catches looped it around the gator's neck, then he pulled hard.
[00:55:51] There was a grading of rough leathery skin against against. Jumbled ice. But the job was too much for one youth. The others grabbed the rope and all pulled. So they've lassoed this alligator out of the drains.
[00:56:00] Slowly with its curving tail, twisting weakly, the animal was dragged from the snow, ten feet through the dank cavern, and to the street where it lay. And I think it's like six feet long. Like it's a decent sized alligator that they've dragged down. And then they were like, okay let's let it go and see if we can look after that. Apparently when they went to go and let it go, then it didn't go well. They beat it to death with the shovels, which is not nice.
[00:56:23] Rod: It's not the same as letting something go.
[00:56:25] Will: But I did like this idea that like in 1935, every kid is basically Huckleberry Finn, lassoing alligators out of the sewer. My God, kids were living interesting lives back then when you lassoed alligators out of the sewer. But I just wanted to know what is living in our sewers? Are there any alligators? Are there other things living down there?
[00:56:43] Rod: A lot of pressure on those stories. We don't need to decide. We just need to tantalize.
[00:56:51] Will: No, I got one, one more little tiny one. This is just a a bit of bigotry that I know that some people share. Maybe this is a question for you listeners. I love you gen Zed. You're wonderful. You are wonderful people. Why can't you queue properly?
[00:57:08] Rod: It's true. It's true. You've got a bar that's, let's say 20 meters long. And then you go to the bar and you think, well, we all know how to queue at a bar. What do you do?
[00:57:18] Will: Everyone throughout history has known what queuing is.
[00:57:23] Rod: You all go to the bar and you work up, you cover the whole front of the bar. That's what you do. But now. You get a long thin line behind one cash register. It makes no sense.
[00:57:31] Will: You stand like four meters back from someone else. And like, are you in the queue?
[00:57:35] Rod: And they go, oh yeah, we forgot. We were like, well, how, what were you doing here?
[00:57:41] Will: And I got a feeling that your inability to queue could be something to do with the fact that social media ruined your lives.
